Has Farage been telling us porkies? Surely not..

[Zamo]

Apart from a very ill-constructed sentence it is also a silly argument. You are contradicting yourself here, on the one hand you say people want out of the EU because of immigration, on the other you say that improving systems will wind people up?

 

Measuring impact is not the same as managing it. We don't do either at the moment because to quantify the problem would lead to most people wanting out of the EU, which prevents us from managing it.

 

It is also factually incorrect, the EU allows for policies and controls, there are already policy amendments in force at the moment that have resulted in the number of Bulgarians and Romanians actually going down, rather than up, since they were allowed to come and work here without the need of a visa.

 

Errr, no.

 

The number released yesterday simply told us the number in work. They didn't tell us how many entered or left. They don't tell us how many are working on the black market. Don't tell us how many on benefits. Don't tell us how many receiving in-work benefits. Don't tell us about contribution.

 

What the EU is against is to stop the free movement of WORKERS. Fix the system and you can stop panicking about EU immigrants coming to take benefits out of the system. This is also on the agenda in the EU parliament as a whole, it is a legit concern and it will need legit solutions, leaving the EU before giving it a chance to fix this is rather silly and self-defeating.

 

The EU has laws about the free movement of goods and people. It is not limited to 'workers'.

 

How long do they want to fix the issue then? Another 20 years? They need to get a wiggle on because people are losing patience and many want to give up and just leave. Words are promises have worn thin.

[*_ash_*]

Civil war! That's a good one! Quick! Ring Nigel he can add to his list of stupid answers !

 

It was a question, not an answer.

[chalga]

I agree there are things the government could do now to better understand and assess the impact of immigration e.g. counting people in and out and tracking what they do when here. But they don't because the results will only wind people and what is the point of that when you can't do anything about it because you are bound by EU law? That is why they have not published figures showing the count of people arriving from Bulgaria and Romania and instead published some meaningless figures about how many are in work!

 

 

 

 

 

They've published the figures that were due to be published,just because they are not the ones that you wanted published,or that they are not saying what you or UKIP wanted,doesn't mean that they are meaningless.They are showing the number of people in work from different countries,that showed a drop of 4,000 for Rumanians and Bulgarians.Instead of throwing all your toys out of the pram because it's not what you wanted to hear,wait while the figures you do want to hear are published.

 

---------- Post added 15-05-2014 at 12:24 ----------

 

but countries are scrounging off it....the EU don't need all these countries...get rid of them and more for us....as for putin the EU upset him by grabbing all those eastern block countries...now he wants his ball back...and has spit out his dummy....

 

I've got a better idea,vote yourselves out of the EU when the time comes,you're an island race remember,not part of Europe and most don't feel European or want anything to do with Europe,don't like the club membership rules,toddle off and leave everybody else who is happy to get on with it.

[Zamo]

They've published the figures that were due to be published,just because they are not the ones that you wanted published,or that they are not saying what you or UKIP wanted,doesn't mean that they are meaningless.They are showing the number of people in work from different countries,that showed a drop of 4,000 for Rumanians and Bulgarians.Instead of throwing all your toys out of the pram because it's not what you wanted to hear,wait while the figures you do want to hear are published.

 

The figures on their own provide no context to allow a judgement on whether a 4000 drop in Romanians and Bulgarians in work in the UK is a good or bad thing. That makes them meaningless.

 

Releasing the figure is no more than a pathetic attempt to fool people into thinking the number of Romanians and Bulgarians in the UK has gone down by 4000 and to discredit those who predicted large numbers. Except the figure doesn't tell us how many came or went does it? They still can't/won't tell us.

[chalga]

The figures on their own provide no context to allow a judgement on whether a 4000 drop in Romanians and Bulgarians in work in the UK is a good or bad thing. That makes them meaningless.

 

 

No,you make your mind up,or are you really waiting for someone to tell you if it's a good or bad thing?..............Do you have a mind of your own,presumably you do,look at the figures,decide if it's a good or a bad thing for you..........it really is that simple.

[tzijlstra]

The EU has laws about the free movement of goods and people. It is not limited to 'workers'.

 

You are factually wrong:

 

Article 45 TFEU (ex 39 and 48 ) states that:

 

“

Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Community.

 

Such freedom of movement shall entail the abolition of any discrimination based on nationality between workers of the Member States as regards employment, remuneration and other conditions of work and employment.

It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health:

• (a) to accept offers of employment actually made;
  
• (b) to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose;
  
• © to stay in a Member State for the purpose of employment in accordance with the provisions governing the employment of nationals of that State laid down by law, regulation or administrative action;
  
• (d) to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in implementing regulations to be drawn up by the Commission.
  

 

The provisions of this article shall not apply to employment in the public service.[1]

 

The free movement of persons (ie. the abiity to cross borders without a passport) is part of the Schengen treaty which does not apply to the UK.

 

So the simple fact is that it is up to the UK to fix immigration from non-workers, there is no need to leave the EU to do so.

[chalga]

 

Releasing the figure is no more than a pathetic attempt to fool people into thinking the number of Romanians and Bulgarians in the UK has gone down by 4000 and to discredit those who predicted large numbers. Except the figure doesn't tell us how many came or went does it? They still can't/won't tell us.

 

That'll be because those figures are not due to be published yet,but like I said,the blow to UKIP and its supporters can clearly be seen by this 'Toys out of the Pram' attitude when the figure published has not matched the fearmongering,if UKIP don't want to be discredited,then they shouldn't have mentioned the 29 MILLION in the first place............Farage has been caught out,and it's all his own fault.

[Zamo]

You are factually wrong:

 

The free movement of persons (ie. the abiity to cross borders without a passport) is part of the Schengen treaty which does not apply to the UK.

 

So the simple fact is that it is up to the UK to fix immigration from non-workers, there is no need to leave the EU to do so.

 

The European Court of Justice ruled in the 1991 Antonissen case that the term 'worker' also meant unemployed job-seekers. So just about anyone from the EU can walk across our borders... even if they have to show their passport first.

[chalga]

The European Court of Justice ruled in the 1991 Antonissen case that the term 'worker' also meant unemployed job-seekers. So just about anyone from the EU can walk across our borders... even if they have to show their passport first.

 

And when they arrive in the UK,this is what they have to do to be classed as a worker:

 

To show they are undertaking genuine and effective work in the UK an EEA migrant will have to show that for the last 3 months they have been earning at the level at which employees start paying National Insurance. This is £150 a week – equivalent to working 24 hours a week at National Minimum Wage. An EEA migrant who has some earnings but doesn’t satisfy the minimum earnings threshold, will be assessed against a broader range of criteria to decide whether they should still be considered as a worker, or self-employed.

[Zamo]

That'll be because those figures are not due to be published yet,but like I said,the blow to UKIP and its supporters can clearly be seen by this 'Toys out of the Pram' attitude when the figure published has not matched the fearmongering,if UKIP don't want to be discredited,then they shouldn't have mentioned the 29 MILLION in the first place............Farage has been caught out,and it's all his own fault.

 

No toys out of the pram from UKIP or its' support because only the terminally dim would interpret the poster headline as a claim that 29 million migrants were on their way! UKIP have lost no credibility and will lose no support at the coming election because of this non-story.

 

Funny though how you have rattled on about what you perceive as a UKIP distortion of the facts but are happy to repeat distorted facts when it suits your position i.e. the lie that the data released yesterday shows there are 4,000 less Romanian and Bulgarians here than last year.