Has Farage been telling us porkies? Surely not..

[Mr Clowning]

You must have missed Farages U Turn this week then.

 

I must have, so are we now seeing the Tories wooing UKIP ?

 

I haven't been keeping track of it, the last I saw the other parties were still slinging mud at them, maybe they have seen the futility in that as its just made UKIP stronger.

 

Well if it gets us our country back...

[SqueakyPete]

Has Farage been telling us porkies?

Politicians and lies go hand in hand,any politician that tells you different is...errrrr:D

[tzijlstra]

I worded the question wrong, I should have said,

What have our MEP's delivered that our MP's couldn't have delivered if we was out of the EU.

 

They have delivered a stable and united Europe that is able to provide a single market in its optimal form, introducing collective policies were needed, from environmental to agricultural to justice. They have worked hard to ensure that people in Britain would benefit from reductions in CO2, increased trade relations with China and other nations and optimised (as far a spossible) the exchange of information between police forces across the continent and worldwide.

 

I can carry on, and on, and on. But there are countless examples of things Britain wouldn't have been able to do alone, and assuming that it can is indeed fools gold.

[ivanava]

They have delivered a stable and united Europe

In what way do you consider Europe to be stable and how different do you think it would have been without the EU.

 

that is able to provide a single market in its optimal form, introducing collective policies were needed, from environmental to agricultural to justice.

Our trade with the EU is the same now as it was before the EU.

 

 

They have worked hard to ensure that people in Britain would benefit from reductions in CO2,

How have we benefited from reductions in CO2, the problem with CO2 is cutting it here makes no difference if other countries are increasing it.

That brings us to China

 

increased trade relations with China

 

We stopped making stuff and bought stuff from China that was manufactured using dirty fuel, so we cut our CO2 but increased their CO2 by more than we cut ours. Solar panels are a good example, by using them we cut our CO2 but globally CO2 increases because of the dirty fuels used to power the manufacture of them in China. Its would have been much better to make them here using clean fuel.

 

 

and other nations and optimised (as far a spossible) the exchange of information between police forces across the continent and worldwide.

 

We can do that without the EU.

 

I can carry on, and on, and on. But there are countless examples of things Britain wouldn't have been able to do alone, and assuming that it can is indeed fools gold.

And I am sure I can counter each and every point you make.

[tzijlstra]

And I am sure I can counter each and every point you make.

 

Shame that none of your "counter" points actually add up to anything sensible.

 

United peaceful Europe: Since World War 2 there has not been a single war between EU countries. Before than there was a practically constant state of war between all the various countries. Know your history.

 

"Our trade with the EU now is the same" is an argument that doesn't stand up against scrutiny, it might be percentage wise, but it isn't volume-wise, the growing global economy dictates that the EU should have lost volume. it hasn't, it has maintained its level.

 

CO2 - clean air act, clean water act, landfill reduction act, recycling act, clean car act, industrial emmisions act and a whole slew of other EU initiatives that could only come off because the collective demanded it. The UK was one of the dirtiest countries in the world up to three decades ago, now it belongs to the cleaner ones, although there is room for improvement. Why could it only happen if the collective demanded it? Because if it had been country by country than each country would have sought to flaunt the rules and gain competitive advantage over its neighbours.

 

Increased trade relations with China - we've been over this a dozen times. There are countless of examples where the EU initiated and increased trade, only recent the current Chinese president came on an EU visit to sign numerous trade agreements.

 

Optimised police exchanges - possible because the EU provides a legal framework for effective exchange of information, documentation and apprehended people. Sure, could have been done without the EU but it wouldn't have been anywhere near as effective without the collective bargaining.

 

As I said, I can carry on. It is easy to discredit the EU, but each time you, Zamo or anybody else actually tries really hard to come up with some facts they get dismissed without even putting in too much effort. It would grace you if you could at least acknowledge that the EU is useful for a lot of stuff, but clearly that doesn't fit in your monoscopic world view.

[retep]

Shame that none of your "counter" points actually add up to anything sensible.

 

United peaceful Europe: Since World War 2 there has not been a single war between EU countries. Before than there was a practically constant state of war between all the various countries. Know your history.

 

"Our trade with the EU now is the same" is an argument that doesn't stand up against scrutiny, it might be percentage wise, but it isn't volume-wise, the growing global economy dictates that the EU should have lost volume. it hasn't, it has maintained its level.

 

CO2 - clean air act, clean water act, landfill reduction act, recycling act, clean car act, industrial emmisions act and a whole slew of other EU initiatives that could only come off because the collective demanded it. The UK was one of the dirtiest countries in the world up to three decades ago, now it belongs to the cleaner ones, although there is room for improvement. Why could it only happen if the collective demanded it? Because if it had been country by country than each country would have sought to flaunt the rules and gain competitive advantage over its neighbours.

 

Increased trade relations with China - we've been over this a dozen times. There are countless of examples where the EU initiated and increased trade, only recent the current Chinese president came on an EU visit to sign numerous trade agreements.

 

Optimised police exchanges - possible because the EU provides a legal framework for effective exchange of information, documentation and apprehended people. Sure, could have been done without the EU but it wouldn't have been anywhere near as effective without the collective bargaining.

 

As I said, I can carry on. It is easy to discredit the EU, but each time you, Zamo or anybody else actually tries really hard to come up with some facts they get dismissed without even putting in too much effort. It would grace you if you could at least acknowledge that the EU is useful for a lot of stuff, but clearly that doesn't fit in your monoscopic world view.

 

You may have missed the riots Spain, Italy, France, Greece, nice and peaceful Europe

[tzijlstra]

You may have missed the riots Spain, Italy, France, Greece, nice and peaceful Europe

 

Yeah, because that was full-blown war

 

You really don't have a lot to contribute do you?

[ivanava]

Shame that none of your "counter" points actually add up to anything sensible.

That's just your opinion which in my opinion is wrong.

 

 

 

United peaceful Europe: Since World War 2 there has not been a single war between EU countries. Before than there was a practically constant state of war between all the various countries. Know your history.

There is no evidence to suggest it would have been any different without the EU.

 

"Our trade with the EU now is the same" is an argument that doesn't stand up against scrutiny, it might be percentage wise, but it isn't volume-wise, the growing global economy dictates that the EU should have lost volume. it hasn't, it has maintained its level.

No it doesn't, we should have been in the perfect position to increase volume, but silly EU regulation prevented us from doing so.

 

 

CO2 - clean air act, clean water act, landfill reduction act, recycling act, clean car act, industrial emmisions act and a whole slew of other EU initiatives that could only come off because the collective demanded it. The UK was one of the dirtiest countries in the world up to three decades ago, now it belongs to the cleaner ones, although there is room for improvement. Why could it only happen if the collective demanded it? Because if it had been country by country than each country would have sought to flaunt the rules and gain competitive advantage over its neighbours.

 

As I said, cleaning our air and water is pointless if we do it by cutting manufacturing here and then buying cheap stuff from countries that don't give a toss about the environment, and we send cargo ships full of waste to avoid dealing with it here, it again goes to countries that don't give a toss about the environment.

 

 

 

Increased trade relations with China - we've been over this a dozen times. There are countless of examples where the EU initiated and increased trade, only recent the current Chinese president came on an EU visit to sign numerous trade agreements.

 

Not good because China use dirty fuel, so we get cheap good that are not environmentally friendly and unfortunately the damage China does to the environment affects us.

 

 

Optimised police exchanges - possible because the EU provides a legal framework for effective exchange of information, documentation and apprehended people. Sure, could have been done without the EU but it wouldn't have been anywhere near as effective without the collective bargaining.

possible with out the EU.

 

 

As I said, I can carry on. It is easy to discredit the EU, but each time you, Zamo or anybody else actually tries really hard to come up with some facts they get dismissed without even putting in too much effort. It would grace you if you could at least acknowledge that the EU is useful for a lot of stuff, but clearly that doesn't fit in your monoscopic world view.

 

Sorry you have failed to convince me that the EU is at all useful, its policies actually cause more damage to the environment than they solve.

[tzijlstra]

So what you are saying is that it is my opinion versus yours? And the problem is? There is plenty of evidence, circumstantial and logical that the EU is doing good things for its members, simple fact is you don't want to believe them and I do. Let people make up their own mind, but stop spreading nonsense.

[ivanava]

So what you are saying is that it is my opinion versus yours? And the problem is? There is plenty of evidence, circumstantial and logical that the EU is doing good things for its members, simple fact is you don't want to believe them and I do. Let people make up their own mind, but stop spreading nonsense.

 

I'm more than happy to let people make their own minds up on how the EU as helped them, its a pity thought that to counter UKIP all their opponents seam able to do is resort to, racist this and idiot that, and only fools vote UKIP, and all that tells me is that you have no argument to support your stance that the EU is good for everyone.