The Sunday Times "Rich List"

[Obelix]

What's with your obsession with the Gini coefficient? It's getting a little ridiculous now.

The Geni Coefficient is just one set of statistics, and not a very good one at that. Look it up on Wikipedia for an overview and you'll see its many failings.

 

Many economists and political commentators now agree that the gap is widening in a very realistic sense, and we're worse off than we were.

 

It's a simple easy to use measure that is convenient to counter your ridiculous assertions that the richer are always getting richer and the gap is always getting wider.

 

That simply isn't so - as the Gini coefficient tells you.

 

You call it "not a very good one" which is because it's inconvenient for you - if it showed what you want you'd latch onto it like a polecat and never let go... and Wikipedia isn't an authoritative source btw...

 

So absent any of the "many failings" you don't detail and absent information on the "many economists" you don't name, we are left with a Gini coefficient that is largely falling, and a tax difference between the top ten and bottom ten percent that is narrowing. Which rather torpedoes your assertion that the gap is getting larger when it's doing the exact opposite.

[Staunton]

The gini coefficient is no longer meaningful. Its parameters are too broad to capture data effectively and, most importantly, so much wealth is now held offshore in secrecy jurisdictions that it is not even available for analysis within the gini measure.

 

Right wing trolls and gutless hypocritical bullies will constantly seek to bluster and harass on any social media forum in order to distract, muddy the waters and confuse. We must take this into account when we are facing the very demise of our essential services. Our NHS is going to disappear in all but name if the tories have any power after the general election, our schools have already had an eight percent cut since May took office and will face further assault, and social care is an underfunded horror of privatised confusion and chaos that will only get worse.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Staunton

[PeteMorris]

Mos Note

 

Can we please stop bickering...It's not clever, and not constructive.

 

Thanks

 

Pete

[Cyclone]

The gini coefficient is no longer meaningful. Its parameters are too broad to capture data effectively and, most importantly, so much wealth is now held offshore in secrecy jurisdictions that it is not even available for analysis within the gini measure.

 

Right wing trolls and gutless hypocritical bullies will constantly seek to bluster and harass on any social media forum in order to distract, muddy the waters and confuse. We must take this into account when we are facing the very demise of our essential services. Our NHS is going to disappear in all but name if the tories have any power after the general election, our schools have already had an eight percent cut since May took office and will face further assault, and social care is an underfunded horror of privatised confusion and chaos that will only get worse.

 

So what measure would you like to replace it with?

 

You can't just declare it to be no use and replace it with an unsupported opinion instead.

 

---------- Post added 10-05-2017 at 11:25 ----------

 

Well said.

 

I am old enough to remember how things used to be. The divide between rich and poor was never as wide as it is now, everyone felt reasonably secure and people cared about each other. I can't believe how the world has changed, and the biggest shock of all is the hard bitten change in attitude.

 

I think it's a survival instinct kicking in. As we sink beneath the waves there are people ready to drown the rest so they can survive, but it doesn't have to be like this.

 

The rich have got richer at our expense, while we get poorer, but the biggest con of all is that we are simultaneously being sold the lie that it's somehow all our fault.

 

It's not.

 

At last we have someone prepared to go after the bankers et al to get our money back. He needs your support.

 

The majority of this argument seems to be down to your basis for opinion being, well, apparently just your opinion.

Is there any actual numerical evidence to support it? Clearly not the gini coefficient, but other than anecdotes there must be something, right?

[Cyclone]

Wasn't it this sort of division that originally lead to the formation of the Liberal Democrats?

 

And in largely avoiding it (now that UKIP voters are back in the fold) it's why the conservatives remain inexplicably popular...

 

Which is exactly why a progressive alliance should be formed to oust the conservatives, frankly there are more people who disagree with them than agree, but they need to put aside their differences to at least get into power.

[alchresearch]

The SDP Liberal Alliance? Very possibly.

 

Splits have affected the Tories too, but its only been a two way split - the old "Blue Rinse brigade" who live in the past and oppose Gay marriage (or gay anything), and younger more modern thinking ones. Same when many left to create UKIP I suppose.

 

There are still issues, but they don't seem to be aired in public like Labour is doing.

[Anna B]

Samssong describes 'traditional old Labour supporters,' wanting 'a new proper socialist party that is from the people for the people,' and that is exactly why Jeremy Corbyn stood in the first place, and what he is offering, but he is also willing to reflect the needs of the people rather than the dogma of the party.

 

---------- Post added 10-05-2017 at 13:31 ----------

 

The SDP Liberal Alliance? Very possibly.

 

Splits have affected the Tories too, but its only been a two way split - the old "Blue Rinse brigade" who live in the past and oppose Gay marriage (or gay anything), and younger more modern thinking ones. Same when many left to create UKIP I suppose.

 

There are still issues, but they don't seem to be aired in public like Labour is doing.

 

The Brexit result has also split the Tories, but again we hear very little of it.

 

As political parties divide, surely it is time we had Proportional Representation.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Anna B

[Cyclone]

The tories are not split. They might not agree, but they haven't dissolved to infighting or formed a new party.

[Staunton]

Cyclone asks a pertinent question – how can we capture true and meaningful statistics in order to analyse and respond to social need? Just how do we factor in such aspects as Teresa May's 8% cut in state education and the further demoralisation of exhausted teachers? How do we include a devastated NHS and its intolerable internal stresses that are leaving front-line staff utterly bereft of hope as they try to maintain services, services still facing yet more deep funding cuts if the tories retain power on June 8? How can we begin to calculate the untold stress on families with loved ones in need of social support as the care system creaks towards collapse? How much do these appalling factors cost ordinary families in time, emotional strain, financially?

 

The Office for National Statistics stresses that their latest figures show that “household incomes are above their pre-downturn peak overall, but not everyone is better off. While retired households’ incomes have soared in recent years, non-retired households still have less money, on average, than before the crash.”

 

So, the median family can afford one medium latte at Costa per day more than they could before the 2007 financial scandal – and they will have to share it. Hardly a ringing endorsement of tory/coalition policy. And we must not forget that the median figure does not represent the poorest in our communities.

 

Meanwhile the richest families will each have to do with one less medium latte per day this year when compared with last year's figures – they will not be needing to sell their Range Rovers any time soon methinks!

[Vaati]

A few have been removed for off-topic. Back on topic please.