The Labour Party. All discussion here please

[tinfoilhat]

12 hours ago, Ridgewalk said:

Labour is in essence a Remain Party, but has to acknowledge that the Referendum vote went for Leave. Tom Watson and many others want to conveniently ignore that. If Labour was elected then they would try to negotiate a better deal than is currently on offer either from self serving financiers and people who would make lots of dosh such as Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage or from neo-liberal remaniacs who've never set foot in a northern town such as Barnsley or Hartlepool and couldn't really care less about poverty, absence of social mobility or real life problems  faced by people in those towns.

 

As i understand it a Corbyn led government would put another vote to the People where Remain would be an option

It’s a pickle for him for sure. Take a chance us daft northerners will vote for a pig with a red rosette and go full remain or lose other seats he might win by playing the neutral card knowing - and please god him and his inner circle must know this - every journo in every interview will push for him to jump one side or another.

 

Brexit will hammer those northern towns, no deal could bring damage they can barely comprehend. But, they’ll still see it has London knows best and they’ll feel they are ignored again if we don’t come out of the eu. They must know they’ll be ignored regardless or us staying or leaving though. Right?

[Top Cats Hat]

6 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

It’s a pickle for him for sure.

It’s not a pickle at all.

 

For months now there has been plenty of evidence that a Remain Labour Party would lose votes in Leave supporting Labour areas but not necessarily seats. Most seats would be retained but with severely reduced majorities.

 

On the other hand Labour would actually pick up many marginal seats, particularly in the south and the Lib Dems would take Remain seats from the Tories.

 

As a leave party, Labour will haemorrhage millions of votes to the Lib Dems, the Greens, Plaid Cymru and to the SNP in Scotland. They won’t even be guaranteed to retain traditional  Labour votes in Leave areas as many of those votes have now been permanently lost to Farage, UKIP or the BNP.

 

All forecasting shows that there will be a net gain of seats for Labour as a Remain party rather than a Leave party. It will take many votes from the Lib Dems who will see Labour as having a realistic chance of forming a Remain government which with the best will in the world, the Lib Dems can never do.

 

No, the problem is Corbyn. Corbyn is a dyed in the wool Brexiteer and even if the Party conference had voted yesterday to become a fully Remain party, Corbyn would have had absolutely no credibility as a Remain party leader.

 

What Labour needed to do this week was to endorse its position as a Remain party and ditch Corbyn in favour of someone like John McDonnell. The best it can hope for now is a coalition with the Lib Dems and SNP where it can kiss goodbye to its radical agenda. This week is a terrible week for the Tories but an even worse one for Labour.

[alchresearch]

10 hours ago, Top Cats Hat said:

No, the problem is Corbyn. Corbyn is a dyed in the wool Brexiteer and even if the Party conference had voted yesterday to become a fully Remain party, Corbyn would have had absolutely no credibility as a Remain party leader.

Majority of 2017 Labour voters think Jeremy Corbyn should step down as leader, poll finds

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-party-conference-jeremy-corbyn-step-down-leader-a9115976.html

 

What's worse is that the party has now lost some of its more moderate MPs like Chuka Umunna, and he'll take the voters to the Lib Dems with him.

 

When it looked like he was going to be the leader in 2015 I felt that the party had turned a corner and that with him at the helm it would lead to a fresh start from the disastrous last days and Brown and Blair, and the punishment Miliband got because of them (although I still say they chose the wrong Miliband).

 

But Corbyn fans can't see this.  They've got the old style Labour leader they've sorely missed, but its costing them power.  And McDonnell and his zany schemes of 30 hour weeks, £10 an hour wages for kids and free healthcare isn't helping.  I hope they're planting those money trees on Corbyn's allotment.

[ANGELFIRE1]

22 hours ago, Top Cats Hat said:

Whatever else Corbyn is, he is neither a Marxist nor an antisemite.

 

You either either have a very poor understanding of politics and antisemitism or you have no credible argument against Corbyn’s politics so have to resort to misrepresenting him.

 

Either way, it’s not a good look.

Panorama row

The party faced further criticism following a BBC Panorama called Is Labour Anti-Semitic?

The programme spoke to a number of former party officials who alleged that senior Labour figures - namely Ms Formby and Mr Corbyn's communications chief Seumas Milne - had interfered in the process of dealing with anti-Semitism complaints.

The disputes team is supposed to operate independently from the party's political structures, including the leader's office.

The whistleblowers also claimed they had faced a huge increase in anti-Semitism complaints since Mr Corbyn became leader in 2015.

 

Mr Corbyn's opponents accuse him of being too close to Hamas, a militant Islamist group, and Hezbollah, a Lebanese paramilitary group. Both groups are widely viewed in the West as terrorist organisations.

He described representatives of Hamas as his "friends" after inviting them to a controversial meeting in Parliament in 2009.

 

Mr Corbyn faced criticism in August 2018 after a video emerged on the Daily Mail website of a 2013 clip in which he said a group of British Zionists had "no sense of English irony".

Former chief rabbi Lord Sacks branded the comments "the most offensive statement" by a politician since Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech and accused the Labour leader of being an anti-Semite.

 

 

In August 2018, the Labour leader also came under fire over his presence at a ceremony in Tunisia in 2014 which is said to have honoured the perpetrators of the 1972 Munich massacre, during which 11 members of the Israeli Olympic team were taken hostage by Palestinian militants and killed.

The Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Mr Corbyn deserved "unequivocal condemnation" for laying a wreath on the grave of one of those behind the atrocity.

 

In March 2018, Mr Corbyn was criticised for sending an apparently supportive message to the creator of an allegedly anti-Semitic mural in 2012.

 

 

Unease within Labour ranks in Parliament intensified in 2017 and 2018 amid concerns the leadership was not doing enough to defend Jewish MPs, such as Luciana Berger, who were themselves the targets of anti-Semitic abuse and death threats.

In March 2018, scores of Labour MPs joined Jewish groups, including the Jewish Leadership Council and the Board of Deputies of British Jews, and other anti-racism campaigners to demand action in an unprecedented "Enough is Enough" rally outside Parliament.

In a further sign of the breakdown in trust between Labour and the Jewish community, the Jewish Labour Movement considered severing its century-old affiliation to the party.

While deciding to retain its ties, the organisation of 2,000 members did pass a motion of no confidence in Mr Corbyn and voted to describe the party as "institutionally anti-Semitic".

 

In February 2019, nine MPs quit Labour, many of them citing the leadership's handling of anti-Semitism as their reason for leaving.

Ms Berger, who had a police escort at the 2018 Labour Party conference, said she had come to the "sickening conclusion" that the party had become institutionally anti-Semitic and that she was "embarrassed and ashamed" to stay.

Ms Berger's supporters, including deputy leader Tom Watson, claimed she has been "bullied out of her own party by racist thugs".

Among the other defectors, Joan Ryan claimed the party had "become infected with the scourge of anti-Jewish racism" while Ian Austin blamed Mr Corbyn for "creating a culture of extremism and intolerance".

 

 

 

If it has a tail like a rat, if it has teeth like a rat, if it has long ears like a rat, if it smells and looks like a rat, you can bet that it is a rat.

 

Angel1.

 

 

 

[Top Cats Hat]

36 minutes ago, ANGELFIRE1 said:

Panorama row

The party faced further criticism following a BBC Panorama called Is Labour Anti-Semitic?

Yes, we’ve seen all that endless times. We know that Corbyn and many on the left support the people of Palestine.

 

Now have you any real evidence that Corbyn is antisemitic?

 

Don’t you find it rather strange that someone who has spent his entire political life opposing racism and has a prouder record on it than 99% of MP’s in Parliament should suddenly turn out to have been antisemitic all the time and nobody knew?

 

I know that you and many others would deeply love Corbyn to be antisemitic but given the immense resources thrown at this matter, there is no evidence of anything other than he has made some unwise choices in some of the events that he has attended. 

[alchresearch]

Whether Corbyn is antisemitic or not is by-the-by. 

 

What matters is how this antisemitism has been allowed to blossom under his leadership.  There wasn't anything of this level when Blair or Brown were in power.

[Obelix]

14 hours ago, Top Cats Hat said:

Yes, we’ve seen all that endless times. We know that Corbyn and many on the left support the people of Palestine.

 

Now have you any real evidence that Corbyn is antisemitic?

 

Don’t you find it rather strange that someone who has spent his entire political life opposing racism and has a prouder record on it than 99% of MP’s in Parliament should suddenly turn out to have been antisemitic all the time and nobody knew?

 

I know that you and many others would deeply love Corbyn to be antisemitic but given the immense resources thrown at this matter, there is no evidence of anything other than he has made some unwise choices in some of the events that he has attended. 

I don't think that Corbyn is anti Semitic. He's certainly not a freind of Israel but thats not the same thing.

He is the Leader of a party that is deeply antisemitic though and that's the problem. The Met was once described as "institutionally racist" Id describe the LAbour Party in a similar manner, and certainly there are arguments now that the Tories are institutionally islamophobic.

[banjodeano]

1 hour ago, alchresearch said:

Whether Corbyn is antisemitic or not is by-the-by. 

 

What matters is how this antisemitism has been allowed to blossom under his leadership.  There wasn't anything of this level when Blair or Brown were in power.

And here we go again, the people who have been ACCUSED is about.  .08% I wouldnt  actually call it an epedemic lol

[alchresearch]

1 hour ago, banjodeano said:

And here we go again, the people who have been ACCUSED is about.  .08% I wouldnt  actually call it an epedemic lol

So how many was it when Blair was in charge?

[banjodeano]

31 minutes ago, alchresearch said:

So how many was it when Blair was in charge?

No idea, but  people were not looking for it then, its now just a stick to beat Corbyn with. Corbyn who has fought racism all his life..does .08% sound like a lot to you? I suspect it is comparable to most parties if people bothered to look.