Ukip. All discussion here please.

[Bonzo77]

UKIP doesn't propose stopping immigration. They propose unlimited but selective immigration i.e. we'll take as many of the right sort of people (from wherever in the world - not just the EU) if they are going to positively contribute. This will be done on a points based system (which doesn't seem to put immigrants off from wanting to go to Oz). As an extra guard against benefit tourism they also propose not paying benefits to immigrants for the first 5 years. There is no denying that if you introduce this measures the net contribution will go up massively and the tensions caused by the current immigration policy will start to ebb.

 

Why would these policies see you and your friends fleeing the UK? How would it make you second class citizens? I bet all of your friends who own/manage businesses are selective when it comes to taking on employees and I bet they all have a probation periods written into the contracts so they can get rid if things don't work out. What's the difference?

 

How would a points system stop the tension? People will still be moaning about immigrants taking their jobs.

[truman]

How would a points system stop the tension? People will still be moaning about immigrants taking their jobs.

 

The points system can be adjusted to take into account the needs of the economy..eg. if we have a need of electricians and a shortage of "native" ones coming forward for the jobs then qualified ones from abroad can be given more access to the UK.. no need for anyone to moan because they'll have had first crack at the available jobs..

[dosxuk]

The media is obsessed in trying to knock them down and pulling out the race card every time the word immigration comes up while a UKIP councillor/candidate is present.

 

Is this the same media who constantly promote UKIP to the exclusion of many other parties who have the same or higher levels of democratic representation? Is this the same media who whenever there's a story about Europe or immigration that fall over themselves to get farage on to rant about his normal pet ideologies rather than anyone who actually knows anything about the subject in question.

 

UKIP gets no where near the level of criticism and analysis the mainstream parties get from the mainstream media. People who think they're being attacked because the media are filming them saying one thing, only to then deny that they said it are deluding themselves or deliberately misrepresenting the situation.

[melthebell]

just looking at some of the other parties involved in todays by election

 

Also standing are Hairy Knorm Davidson of the Official Monster Raving Loony Party, Independents Mike Barker, Christopher Challis, Stephen Goldsbrough and Charlotte Rose; Jayda Fransen of Britain First, Nick Long of People Before Profit and Dave Osborn of the Patriotic Socialist Party.

never heard of the patriotic socialist party Oo

[Zamo]

How would a points system stop the tension? People will still be moaning about immigrants taking their jobs.

 

The majority (of course not all) of the unemployed in this country will only be qualified to gain work that is towards the bottom end of the earning scale where people do not make a positive financial contribution i.e. pay their equal share or more of what it costs to run the country. Therefore screening out low earning immigrants will result in more jobs where they are needed (even if there is an issue of them not always being wanted!) and the argument about taking jobs will subside even if it never goes away entirely.

 

Middle to high income immigrants are also far less likely to come with the social/cultural issues that can cause tensions, won't arrive en masse and concentrated in certain areas. This will therefore prevent the tension that we now see in places like Page Hall caused by an open door policy.

[L00b]

Why would these policies see you and your friends fleeing the UK?

Because neither they nor I are going to wait for the conditions to change further or risk that, one day, some uniformed busybody in Folkestone at the Chunnel exit stops us from going back to our home and life on our return from holiday, because our passport isn't British.

 

When populists are starting to get their way with anti-immigration policies, these are risks which, for economic migrants with a lot invested in their host countries, transition from "notional and imagined" that warrant thinking about and perhaps planning, to "potential and real" that warrant action.

How would it make you second class citizens?

Relative to currently? I'd have thought you were plenty smart enough to understand how.

 

Because 'we' transition from living, working and investing here because the supranational club rules binding on the national Gvt say so, to living and working here because the Gvt condescends to let us, which Gvt is far more amenable to the whims and wishes of xenophobic cretins than the supranational club.

 

As amply demonstrated by the UKIP-driven rethorical race now engulfing the Tories and Labour, which will worsen (of course) the closer we get to 2015.

I bet all of your friends who own/manage businesses are selective when it comes to taking on employees and I bet they all have a probation periods written into the contracts so they can get rid if things don't work out. What's the difference?

The difference is that, following your employment contract analogy, my friends and I signed on the dotted line, then went about it all in full knowledge of the facts and in and outs, but UKIP (and now the Tories and Labour, increasingly) are proposing to redraft the contract from scratch. Some employees will always take it, but I think you'll find (maybe you already know from experience) that the higher up the totem pole you go, the less the employer gets away with the practice

 

Reckless for UKIP effectively stated that UKIP would tear that contract, to the extent Farage felt compelled to intervene and 'rectify' that statement pretty sharpish. Speaks volumes, and says all it needs to.

Don't slam the door on your way out.

What door?

 

As already stated in this thread, and many others on the topic, and for a long time now, I am all in favour of discourse about sensible immigration controlling policies replacing the open door, to the extent that I do consider several of the points which you made above Zamo entirely valid. My problem is with the populists gradually legitimising xenophobia, and with the hard-of-thinking and monothinkers who buy into it, like Peter above.

Edited November 20, 2014 by L00b

[Zamo]

Because neither they nor I are going to wait for the conditions to change further or risk that, one day, some uniformed busybody in Folkestone at the Chunnel exit stops us from going back to our home and life on our return from holiday, because our passport isn't British.

 

When populists are starting to get their way with anti-immigration policies, these are risks which, for economic migrants with a lot invested in their host countries, transition from "notional and imagined" that warrant thinking about and perhaps planning, to "potential and real" that warrant action.

Relative to currently? I'd have thought you were plenty smart enough to understand how.

 

You assume that tightening immigration controls is a slippery slope towards overt racism and nationalism. I'd argue the opposite. I think we are already on that slippery slope and need these sort of controls to reverse it.

 

The difference is that, following your employment contract analogy, my friends and I signed on the dotted line, then went about it all in full knowledge of the facts and in and outs, but UKIP (and now the Tories and Labour, increasingly) are proposing to redraft the contract from scratch.

 

Ask your friends if they have ever overseen a restructure. Tear up the old job descriptions, write up new ones with fewer posts and use the process to get rid of the deadwood. Life's a bitch.

 

In all seriousness, UKIP policies pose no threat to foreign professionals and business people. Their policies allows unlimited entry (from across the world not just the EU) to the right sort of immigrants, whilst Tories want to deploy the blunt instrument of quotas. It isn't a cap on the number of foreigners we need but a cap on the wrong sort.

[L00b]

You assume that tightening immigration controls is a slippery slope towards overt racism and nationalism.

There's no need to assume anything: historical evidence that it eventually does is both overwhelming and incontrovertible.

It isn't a cap on the number of foreigners we need but a cap on the wrong sort.

Case in point: you managed to do it yourself in a short single post!

 

Oh, the irony!

Edited November 20, 2014 by L00b

[Ellco]

And yet UKIP are now saying they won't kick the immigrants out of the UK...

 

You really couldn't make it up!

 

I don't know anyone in UKIP who has ever subscribed to kicking immigrants out. The policy is to have a points bases system, much like Australia.

 

In relation to EU migrants they are welcome to stay should we ever leave the EU. That's how it has always been, even though the media has tried to manipulate what Mr Reckless said the other day.

 

The latest rubbish is to be expected with the by-election today.

 

The trouble the media and UKIP's other political opponents now is that nobody listens to what they're saying anymore because they tell so many lies.

 

All the UKIP members I know just become more resolute and work harder. There is a big change coming and the other parties need to concentrate on what they can offer rather than what UKIP can't, allegedly.

 

Unfortunately they can't offer much apart from rehashed UKIP policy, you couldn't make it up.

[retep]

Because neither they nor I are going to wait for the conditions to change further or risk that, one day, some uniformed busybody in Folkestone at the Chunnel exit stops us from going back to our home and life on our return from holiday, because our passport isn't British.

 

When populists are starting to get their way with anti-immigration policies, these are risks which, for economic migrants with a lot invested in their host countries, transition from "notional and imagined" that warrant thinking about and perhaps planning, to "potential and real" that warrant action.

Relative to currently? I'd have thought you were plenty smart enough to understand how.

 

Because 'we' transition from living, working and investing here because the supranational club rules binding on the national Gvt say so, to living and working here because the Gvt condescends to let us, which Gvt is far more amenable to the whims and wishes of xenophobic cretins than the supranational club.

 

As amply demonstrated by the UKIP-driven rethorical race now engulfing the Tories and Labour, which will worsen (of course) the closer we get to 2015.

The difference is that, following your employment contract analogy, my friends and I signed on the dotted line, then went about it all in full knowledge of the facts and in and outs, but UKIP (and now the Tories and Labour, increasingly) are proposing to redraft the contract from scratch. Some employees will always take it, but I think you'll find (maybe you already know from experience) that the higher up the totem pole you go, the less the employer gets away with the practice

 

Reckless for UKIP effectively stated that UKIP would tear that contract, to the extent Farage felt compelled to intervene and 'rectify' that statement pretty sharpish. Speaks volumes, and says all it needs to.

What door?

 

As already stated in this thread, and many others on the topic, and for a long time now, I am all in favour of discourse about sensible immigration controlling policies replacing the open door, to the extent that I do consider several of the points which you made above Zamo entirely valid. My problem is with the populists gradually legitimising xenophobia, and with the hard-of-thinking and monothinkers who buy into it, like Peter above.

 

You mean people who don't agree with you, that's the way the world works, no use chucking hissy fits.