Ukip. All discussion here please.

[mjw47]

!

 

---------- Post added 06-05-2015 at 15:33 ----------

 

 

What about the ones who have read their manifesto, and like it? Or haven't you bothered to look at it?

 

:confused:

 

They are entitled to their view, but the point is that Ukip could promise bigger pint pots in their manifesto, because it isn't going to be put into practice, is it?

 

Therefore, they can - and do - say whatever they think will attract votes.

 

They have proved incapable of actually carrying out their duties when given a chance to impress and are quite obviously in it for the gravy train.

 

Had they adopted the attitude ' we want out of the EU, but as things stand we are in it, so we will work hard with other British MEP's from whatever party to ensure we do the best for British interests' then I would have had some respect for them.

 

Nigel Farage is an excellent example of their behaviour. He was a member of the European fisheries commission for three years during which time he attended exactly one meeting.

 

However, when it came to a vote on MEP's having to supply receipts and have their expenses audited to justify the substantial amount they receive Farage left the election campaign and flew to Brussels in order to vote no.

 

A clear indication as to exactly where his priorities lay.

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CDoQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.express.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2F574154%2FMEPs-provoke-anger-BLOCKING-move-reveal-expenses&ei=jitKVaTwF-eM7AbJvIDQBw&usg=AFQjCNEps3IXOpn_YNC-LptgrQ3bhccWTA&bvm=bv.92291466,d.ZGU&cad=rja

 

How anyone can observe this clear pattern of behavour and still think voting Ukip is a good idea is beyond me.

 

---------- Post added 06-05-2015 at 16:29 ----------

 

Why in your opinion are UKIP policies xenophobic?

 

What makes you think their target demographic are intolerant of people because of the opinions they hold?

 

What is it that you think UKIP supporters have been persuaded to believe?

 

Most of them at some point will have supported another party and because they are not gullible enough to believe that those parties have changed, they have decided to support a different party. They are likley the least gullible.

 

I think they are xenophobic because I agree with these two views.

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Fpolitics%2Fukip-is-not-racist-but-it-is-xenophobic-says-communities-secretary-eric-pickles-9389693.html&ei=XS5KVbfDINSQ7AaIt4KYCw&usg=AFQjCNE9X-IRe3a0gCGC6URNNXkW6yT0rg&bvm=bv.92291466,d.ZGU

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fvoices%2Fcomment%2Fdont-be-fooled-by-ukips-charm-it-is-xenophobic-and-creates-fear-8612768.html&ei=XS5KVbfDINSQ7AaIt4KYCw&usg=AFQjCNF8MuU3ibh9e7oPOlhpcvIClvFgUg&bvm=bv.92291466,d.ZGU

 

Why don't you believe they are xenophobic?

 

I think their target demographic is intolerant because Ukip has deliberately shaped it's policy and comments to appeal to such people.

 

What makes you believe that people who hold views commensurate with Ukip policy aren't - in significant numbers - intolerant?

 

I don't think Ukip followers have been persuaded to believe anything, Ukip are not a progressive idealistic party with a vision of the future, they are a party trying to harness dissatisfaction with the current situation and use it to their own ends, the expenses are excellent, no receipts!

 

Tell us, why do you think Farage stopped electioneering and flew to Brussels to vote not to audit his expenses, when he couldn't be bothered to turn up to 41 out of 42 committee meetings when he was a member of the European fisheries commission?

[loraward]

They are entitled to their view, but the point is that Ukip could promise bigger pint pots in their manifesto, because it isn't going to be put into practice, is it?

 

Therefore, they can - and do - say whatever they think will attract votes.

 

They have proved incapable of actually carrying out their duties when given a chance to impress and are quite obviously in it for the gravy train.

 

Had they adopted the attitude ' we want out of the EU, but as things stand we are in it, so we will work hard with other British MEP's from whatever party to ensure we do the best for British interests' then I would have had some respect for them.

 

Nigel Farage is an excellent example of their behaviour. He was a member of the European fisheries commission for three years during which time he attended exactly one meeting.

 

However, when it came to a vote on MEP's having to supply receipts and have their expenses audited to justify the substantial amount they receive Farage left the election campaign and flew to Brussels in order to vote no.

 

A clear indication as to exactly where his priorities lay.

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CDoQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.express.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2F574154%2FMEPs-provoke-anger-BLOCKING-move-reveal-expenses&ei=jitKVaTwF-eM7AbJvIDQBw&usg=AFQjCNEps3IXOpn_YNC-LptgrQ3bhccWTA&bvm=bv.92291466,d.ZGU&cad=rja

 

How anyone can observe this clear pattern of behavour and still think voting Ukip is a good idea is beyond me.

 

---------- Post added 06-05-2015 at 16:29 ----------

 

 

I think they are xenophobic because I agree with these two views.

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Fpolitics%2Fukip-is-not-racist-but-it-is-xenophobic-says-communities-secretary-eric-pickles-9389693.html&ei=XS5KVbfDINSQ7AaIt4KYCw&usg=AFQjCNE9X-IRe3a0gCGC6URNNXkW6yT0rg&bvm=bv.92291466,d.ZGU

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fvoices%2Fcomment%2Fdont-be-fooled-by-ukips-charm-it-is-xenophobic-and-creates-fear-8612768.html&ei=XS5KVbfDINSQ7AaIt4KYCw&usg=AFQjCNF8MuU3ibh9e7oPOlhpcvIClvFgUg&bvm=bv.92291466,d.ZGU

 

Why don't you believe they are xenophobic?

 

I think their target demographic is intolerant because Ukip has deliberately shaped it's policy and comments to appeal to such people.

 

What makes you believe that people who hold views commensurate with Ukip policy aren't - in significant numbers - intolerant?

 

I don't think Ukip followers have been persuaded to believe anything, Ukip are not a progressive idealistic party with a vision of the future, they are a party trying to harness dissatisfaction with the current situation and use it to their own ends, the expenses are excellent, no receipts!

 

Tell us, why do you think Farage stopped electioneering and flew to Brussels to vote not to audit his expenses, when he couldn't be bothered to turn up to 41 out of 42 committee meetings when he was a member of the European fisheries commission?

 

So Eric Pickles says they are xenophobic and because you are gullible you believe him.

 

Xenophobi

having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.

 

Does that mean that Nigel dislikes his German wife?

[mjw47]

So Eric Pickles says they are xenophobic and because you are gullible you believe him.

 

Xenophobi

having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.

 

Does that mean that Nigel dislikes his German wife?

 

Pickles isn't the only one though is he?

 

I didn't say Farage was did I?

 

I said Ukip is, Farage is simply taking advantage of the fact that a lot of people - in a lot of countries - are xenophobic, he's playing numbers.

 

He likes the limelight, the notoriety, but most of all he - and his fellow Ukip politicians - love those exes, no receipts!

 

It would be a bit daft for him to be xenophobic wouldn't it? His names Farage, that's French isn't it?

 

Now, answer the question you avoided, why did Farage fly to Brussels in the middle of an election campaign to vote no to his expenses being audited when he couldn't be arsed on 41 out of 42 occasions to attend meetings of a committee he was a member of?

[loraward]

Pickles isn't the only one though is he?

 

I didn't say Farage was did I?

 

I said Ukip is, Farage is simply taking advantage of the fact that a lot of people - in a lot of countries - are xenophobic, he's playing numbers.

 

He likes the limelight, the notoriety, but most of all he - and his fellow Ukip politicians - love those exes, no receipts!

 

It would be a bit daft for him to be xenophobic wouldn't it? His names Farage, that's French isn't it?

 

Now, answer the question you avoided, why did Farage fly to Brussels in the middle of an election campaign to vote no to his expenses being audited when he couldn't be arsed on 41 out of 42 occasions to attend meetings of a committee he was a member of?

 

People within an organisation can be xenophobic, but the organisation can't be xenophobic, its like saying a table is zenaphobic just because half the people sat round it are xenophobic. Their policies don't appear to have been written by someone that is xenaphobic, so other than Pickles and a few other people that don't like the idea of loosing their seat on the gravy train, what reason do you have to believe their policies are based on xenaphobia.

 

What gives you the impression that I would know why Farage went to Brussels in the middle of an election campaign to vote no to his expenses being audited, I wasn't even aware that he had let alone why he went.

Edited May 6, 2015 by loraward

[mjw47]

People within an organisation can be xenophobic, but the organisation can't be xenophobic, its like saying a table is zenaphobic just because half the people sat round it are xenophobic. Their policies don't appear to have been written by someone that is xenaphobic, so other than Pickles and a few other people that don't like the idea of loosing their seat on the gravy train, what reason do you have to believe their policies are based on xenaphobia.

 

You are obviously struggling to keep the 'discussion' going and beginning to look a little foolish as a result.

 

If an organization can't be xenophobic then by the same token it can't be efficient or inefficient, it can't be successful or unsuccessful, nor can it be reliable or trusted.

 

All of those descriptions which are the result of employees and management actions are applied to organizations and accepted and fully understood.

 

Ukip is described as xenophobic because many of it's members and supporters - although not necessarily all - behave in a xenophobic manner.

 

Those that do not are apparently willing to overlook and accept that situation because presumably they feel that there are elements of the Ukip doctrine that they agree with.

 

Which means that they are not sufficiently repelled by the attitude which is of course their right but doesn't show them in a particularly good light in many peoples opinion.

 

Now, you are good at asking questions but absolutely crap at answering them.

 

So, lets try again shall we?

 

Why did Farage take time out from his busiest time in the last five years to go to Brussels and vote on a subject which directly effected his personal finances, but didn't bother going on 41 occasions when the subject effected other people?

 

Also, given the overwhelming evidence that Ukip politicians are taking the pee ( and the expenses ) why are so many people still fooled by them?

[panzer1]

I intend to vote UKIP but I am not xenophobic. I do not have an intense fear or hatred of foreign things/people, dictionary definition. However I believe this country is full so we should not have open door immigration of any type from the EU or elsewhere. I believe the EU is run by unaccountable/unelected people who have too big a baring on my life. Therefore in less than 12 hours I will be voting UKIP and keeping my fingers crossed for as many seats as possible

[retep]

Yes really! http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CFMQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessinsider.com%2Fnigel-farage-ripped-apart-in-eu-debate-2012-12&ei=YiVKVYSONfSV7AbksIGIAQ&usg=AFQjCNFlkLqTe8kzp7GoZCvEZKvwtPczpg&bvm=bv.92291466,d.ZGU&cad=rja

 

Guy Verhofstadt! not much better than Farage, have you seen his ranking? he's some need to talk.

[mjw47]

I intend to vote UKIP but I am not xenophobic. I do not have an intense fear or hatred of foreign things/people, dictionary definition. However I believe this country is full so we should not have open door immigration of any type from the EU or elsewhere. I believe the EU is run by unaccountable/unelected people who have too big a baring on my life. Therefore in less than 12 hours I will be voting UKIP and keeping my fingers crossed for as many seats as possible

 

And that is your prerogative but I very much doubt that voting Ukip will bring that about.

 

I also agree with you that the EU requires reform and that we need stricter control of our borders.

 

However I do not wish to leave the EU merely change it, and I have no time for Ukip.

 

They are not the answer, unless the question is " How can we go about electing a bigger bunch of corrupt incompetent wasters than we currently have? ".

 

In which case the answer would be " Vote Ukip. "

 

As for the EU there are a number of myths regarding it's operation and impact on the member countries.

 

From the ridiculous. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Fstory%2F1266181%2Fthe-top-10-european-union-myths-debunked&ei=NGVKVZyLB6Gx7QbAg4DQAQ&usg=AFQjCNH6Fvb6rho5K0OWb0GwvcR3Af1W4Q&bvm=bv.92291466,d.ZGU&cad=rja Although I have to say I'd have gone along with the bagpipes one!

 

To the more informative. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftheconversation.com%2Ffive-myths-about-europe-that-need-busting-before-the-british-general-election-38810&ei=T2dKVYSICout7gbGv4GoAg&usg=AFQjCNGcogCA7OKuhLRcHmDMnrQOADs_Cw&bvm=bv.92291466,d.ZGU&cad=rja

 

---------- Post added 06-05-2015 at 20:15 ----------

 

Guy Verhofstadt! not much better than Farage, have you seen his ranking? he's some need to talk.

 

So does that invalidate his comments on Farage, or is it a case of don't like the message attack the messenger?

Edited May 6, 2015 by mjw47

[retep]

And that is your prerogative but I very much doubt that voting Ukip will bring that about.

 

I also agree with you that the EU requires reform and that we need stricter control of our borders.

 

However I do not wish to leave the EU merely change it, and I have no time for Ukip.

 

They are not the answer, unless the question is " How can we go about electing a bigger bunch of corrupt incompetent wasters than we currently have? ".

 

In which case the answer would be " Vote Ukip. "

 

As for the EU there are a number of myths regarding it's operation and impact on the member countries.

 

From the ridiculous. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Fstory%2F1266181%2Fthe-top-10-european-union-myths-debunked&ei=NGVKVZyLB6Gx7QbAg4DQAQ&usg=AFQjCNH6Fvb6rho5K0OWb0GwvcR3Af1W4Q&bvm=bv.92291466,d.ZGU&cad=rja Although I have to say I'd have gone along with the bagpipes one!

 

To the more informative. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftheconversation.com%2Ffive-myths-about-europe-that-need-busting-before-the-british-general-election-38810&ei=T2dKVYSICout7gbGv4GoAg&usg=AFQjCNGcogCA7OKuhLRcHmDMnrQOADs_Cw&bvm=bv.92291466,d.ZGU&cad=rja

 

---------- Post added 06-05-2015 at 20:15 ----------

 

 

So does that invalidate his comments on Farage, or is it a case of don't like the message attack the messenger?

 

 

Not much point in Farage attending something he doesn't agree with, but UKIP are on the ball with the underhand tactics regarding fishing as of here,

 

"Outcry over EU plot to seize control of our seabed.

 

The proposal was spotted by UKIP MEP and Fisheries spokesman Stuart Agnew."

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/375851/Outcry-over-EU-plot-to-seize-control-of-our-seabed

[loraward]

You are obviously struggling to keep the 'discussion' going and beginning to look a little foolish as a result.

 

If an organization can't be xenophobic then by the same token it can't be efficient or inefficient, it can't be successful or unsuccessful, nor can it be reliable or trusted.

Its the leadership and people within the organization that make it successful or unsuccessful, efficient or inefficient, so if as you say the UKIP leadership isn't xenophobic how can the organisation be xenophobic. Nothing in their policies points to xenophobia, their leader isn't xenophobic so why do you think that UKIP is xenophobic?

 

All of those descriptions which are the result of employees and management actions are applied to organizations and accepted and fully understood.

 

Ukip is described as xenophobic because many of it's members and supporters - although not necessarily all - behave in a xenophobic manner.

 

What percentage of members are xenaphobic and what evidence do you have to support your assertion that they are.

If xenophobes shop in Tesco does that also mean Tesco is xenophobic?

 

Those that do not are apparently willing to overlook and accept that situation because presumably they feel that there are elements of the Ukip doctrine that they agree with.

I know that all political parties have their share of racists and xenaphobs members and supporters, but I won't hold it against the party.

 

 

 

Which means that they are not sufficiently repelled by the attitude which is of course their right but doesn't show them in a particularly good light in many peoples opinion.

Since there are bad people in every political party one as to decide which is the best of a bad lot.

 

 

Now, you are good at asking questions but absolutely crap at answering them.

 

So, lets try again shall we?

 

Why did Farage take time out from his busiest time in the last five years to go to Brussels and vote on a subject which directly effected his personal finances, but didn't bother going on 41 occasions when the subject effected other people?

 

I answered the question in the post you quoted, but for some reason you chose to ignore the answer or even quote that part of my post.

 

Also, given the overwhelming evidence that Ukip politicians are taking the pee ( and the expenses ) why are so many people still fooled by them?

 

They are doing what they are elected to do, if the main parties want to stay in the EU without giving everyone the choice, then they should expect the people to rebel and elect MEP's that don't belong to those parties. I want an in out referendum on the EU, only Labour and the Conservatives can deliver that referendum, until they do they can expect to keep loosing MEP's and influence in the EU.