5 Million British children face poverty because of welfare reforms

[*_ash_*]

If you can't see how rude you were being then I despair...

 

You'll have to despair then. I can't see what is rude, but either way it is not intentional.

 

There is a world of difference between attacking an argument, (perfectly acceptable) and attacking the poster. (Not acceptable) I used your name in the post to try and show you how it feels, tho' it's something I rarely do.

 

Yeah but that was nonsense. I've never said 'people like you', but you wrote to someone else 'But with people like *ash *'

 

It doesn't follow. That was a favouritism comment rather than insulting me.

 

-

 

Also there is a general feeling among some posters on SF that it's OK to call unemployed people 'scroungers' and the like. It's not. With some it's so vindictive it borders on hate crime. The majority of unemployed don't want to be on benefits, have paid into a system for years, and would love a job.

 

And? What's that got to do with anything I can't ever recall saying that unemployed people are scroungers.

 

The other myth" on SF is that if only they pulled their socks up they could start their own business and become rich and famous, quoting people like Richard Branson as examples of this sort of success. 'If he can do it so can you.'

 

hmmm, again strawmanesk

 

I was simply pointing out that he had a lot of advantages that most of us don't have that helped him to succeed. This is not jealousy or negative, it's a fact. I never said he had it easy, I said he had help and influential contacts. When you start to dig, most successful entrepreneurs do. Not all, but most.

 

Most successful business people have something that isn't rich or influencial parents. They of course might be rich because of rich parents OR their influence, but a fool and money are soon parted.

 

It's a mixture of business/mathematical intelligence; charisma; a certain 'get up and go'; AND hard work.

 

I don't think that many people have all of those things, in relation to those who don't.

 

Of the 4, I think I have the first, occasional bouts of the second, non of the third, and lots of the forth. Hence, I'll never be Branson or anyone like him.

 

You see? That is negativity. I have it. I wasn't insulting you. Look at those 4 and think which you have

 

Personally, I don't have the get up and go, because I don't really want lots of money or success. I like stability more than risk.

 

But times have changed dramatically. Which is why I used the word myth* with regards to this lessening of opportunity, not because of 'negativity' but because it's a fact, that 80% of new businesses fail in the first year, and, more importantly, leave the owners in debt.

 

Again this goes back to risk, and you can be found often talking about employers paying a living wage. It's a fine line. If your figures stand up, and I'm not questioning them, as it suits my argument! then it could almost be a good argument against your stance towards NMW.

 

 

Hard work alone just won't cut it.

 

I agree, I listed the 4 things that I just plucked out of my head. There's more to it.

 

As for extending the arguments into other areas, I was quoting Mark Carney, Governor of the Bank of England whose opinions appear to coincide with mine, so he must be 'negative' too. If people won't admit there are serious problems, how can they be solved?

 

Please don't keep repeating this 'negative' thing, it looks silly.

 

I think the huge swing to UKIP suggests most people recognise we have problems that the government is ignoring. Are they being 'negative' also, or are they trying to make people listen?

 

 

 

Well, that's what the government gets for kicking most people in the head for so long. I don't think any amount of electoral bribing can remedy that, but god help us if UKIP get into No 10

 

1st quote: This is where politics becomes interesting.

 

Personally, I don't begrudge anyone who votes UKIP. And I don't think it's a protest vote per se. I think most people don't see the whole picture. Anyone who has dealt with personal debt, knows that idealism and realism are very different. The consequence of debt means that balancing the books is not an easy thing, when the money coming in is less than the money going out.

 

2nd quote: Of course Mecky, UKIP in power isn't the best case scenario, however, as things stand, UKIP are doing a good job for you on the left side of centre. If there was ever a backdoor for Labour winning the next year election, then it is this.

 

It's oddly close to the France situation actually (which is quite worrying!). I would find it interesting to see L00b's take on this.

 

There will always be people, including children, in poverty in the UK ..... by definition.

 

Yep, of course. In one sentence you can sum it up. Most won't get that though. You already know that.

[Anna B]

You'll have to despair then. I can't see what is rude, but either way it is not intentional.

 

 

 

Yeah but that was nonsense. I've never said 'people like you', but you wrote to someone else 'But with people like *ash *'

 

It doesn't follow. That was a favouritism comment rather than insulting me.

 

-

 

 

 

And? What's that got to do with anything I can't ever recall saying that unemployed people are scroungers.

 

 

 

hmmm, again strawmanesk

 

 

 

Most successful business people have something that isn't rich or influencial parents. They of course might be rich because of rich parents OR their influence, but a fool and money are soon parted.

 

It's a mixture of business/mathematical intelligence; charisma; a certain 'get up and go'; AND hard work.

 

I don't think that many people have all of those things, in relation to those who don't.

 

Of the 4, I think I have the first, occasional bouts of the second, non of the third, and lots of the forth. Hence, I'll never be Branson or anyone like him.

 

You see? That is negativity. I have it. I wasn't insulting you. Look at those 4 and think which you have

 

Personally, I don't have the get up and go, because I don't really want lots of money or success. I like stability more than risk.

 

 

 

Again this goes back to risk, and you can be found often talking about employers paying a living wage. It's a fine line. If your figures stand up, and I'm not questioning them, as it suits my argument! then it could almost be a good argument against your stance towards NMW.

 

 

 

 

I agree, I listed the 4 things that I just plucked out of my head. There's more to it.

 

 

 

Please don't keep repeating this 'negative' thing, it looks silly.

 

 

 

1st quote: This is where politics becomes interesting.

 

Personally, I don't begrudge anyone who votes UKIP. And I don't think it's a protest vote per se. I think most people don't see the whole picture. Anyone who has dealt with personal debt, knows that idealism and realism are very different. The consequence of debt means that balancing the books is not an easy thing, when the money coming in is less than the money going out.

 

2nd quote: Of course Mecky, UKIP in power isn't the best case scenario, however, as things stand, UKIP are doing a good job for you on the left side of centre. If there was ever a backdoor for Labour winning the next year election, then it is this.

 

It's oddly close to the France situation actually (which is quite worrying!). I would find it interesting to see L00b's take on this.

 

 

 

Yep, of course. In one sentence you can sum it up. Most won't get that though. You already know that.

 

I'm afraid I don't know how to split text and comment on points individually, which would make it easier to get points across.

 

I agree with your 4 points, but I would add that money and influential friends also helps considerably. I don't think I have any of the attributes necessary, but I am content with the path I have chosen and am very fortunate in my family and friends which mean the most to me. I also work (as a volunteer) with some of the less fortunate in society which is why I get so worked up about inequality and lack of opportunity, as I see it every day.

 

I don't know if I agree the poor will always be with us. History suggests they will, but I can't help hoping that we can eradicate it at some point in the future. The money is there, but not the will. At the moment it seems to be going in the opposite direction. There will always be differential between the rich and less well off, but I'd like to see everyone have their basic needs met as a human right, which isn't happening at the moment.

[tinfoilhat]

I'm afraid I don't know how to split text and comment on points individually, which would make it easier to get points across.

 

I agree with your 4 points, but I would add that money and influential friends also helps considerably. I don't think I have any of the attributes necessary, but I am content with the path I have chosen and am very fortunate in my family and friends which mean the most to me. I also work (as a volunteer) with some of the less fortunate in society which is why I get so worked up about inequality and lack of opportunity, as I see it every day.

 

I don't know if I agree the poor will always be with us. History suggests they will, but I can't help hoping that we can eradicate it at some point in the future. The money is there, but not the will. At the moment it seems to be going in the opposite direction. There will always be differential between the rich and less well off, but I'd like to see everyone have their basic needs met as a human right, which isn't happening at the moment.

 

Back up a minute - who isn't getting their basic needs met? Dole money, child benefit, housing benefit, free healthcare, free education up to 18, freedom of religion. Now some don't manage that lot well but those needs are met aren't they?

[Anna B]

Back up a minute - who isn't getting their basic needs met? Dole money, child benefit, housing benefit, free healthcare, free education up to 18, freedom of religion. Now some don't manage that lot well but those needs are met aren't they?

 

Thankfully most are being met, and I'm proud to live in a country that takes it seriously, but there are increasing issues with homelessness, slum housing, problems with rent etc, (and heaven knows what's going to happen when interest rates go up.)

 

The biggest problem is sanctions which leave people high and dry with nothing, and then it take ages to get right again. Thank goodness there are the food banks, but some are struggling to cope.

 

But that's just here. World wide there are still 925 million malnourished people, and many, many people without access to clean drinking water. And for billions, adequate housing is just a distant dream. These are our fellow human beings and we should care about them like we would our own friends and neighbours.

[truman]

I wouldn't worry about poverty too much, the government is going to lift people out of poverty by simply redefining what poverty is

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/800000-people-lifted-out-offuel-poverty--by-redefining-it-8976232.html

 

Isn't "fuel poverty" just an arbitrary number anyway? ie spending more than 10% of their income on fuel...who decided that that was the correct figure?

[Lotusflower]

Isn't "fuel poverty" just an arbitrary number anyway? ie spending more than 10% of their income on fuel...who decided that that was the correct figure?

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_poverty

[truman]

Hope this helps.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_poverty

 

Just shows it's an arbitrary figure....

[Lotusflower]

Just shows it's an arbitrary figure....

 

Read it thoroughly and also refer to the references used at the bottom of the page.

[tzijlstra]

Poverty is measured using arbitrary rates, as a percentageof the median income. The question is, can people live of that figure. In the UK the answer is yes, they can. The threshold in the UK is ample for survival, meaning that those claiming poverty should not have to suffer the way they do.

 

My father always had an average income, ie. median, and yet my parents were always out of money, without wanting to belittle them, they now both work and have a double median income and are still struggling despite all three of us having left the house a long time ago, why? Because they make bad choices with their money, just like they always did. Some people live within their means, others don't.

 

It isn't the responsibility of the government to 'save the poor', itt should be the responsibility of the people.

[Lotusflower]

Poverty is measured using arbitrary rates, as a percentageof the median income. The question is, can people live of that figure. In the UK the answer is yes, they can. The threshold in the UK is ample for survival, meaning that those claiming poverty should not have to suffer the way they do.

 

My father always had an average income, ie. median, and yet my parents were always out of money, without wanting to belittle them, they now both work and have a double median income and are still struggling despite all three of us having left the house a long time ago, why? Because they make bad choices with their money, just like they always did. Some people live within their means, others don't.

 

It isn't the responsibility of the government to 'save the poor', itt should be the responsibility of the people.

 

Re my bolds.

 

1.The definition of arbitrary is..."Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system."

2.Now that is arbitrary. I say that based on the fact that many people are not managing and the number of such people is increasing on a daily basis!

You can sit in your ivory tower and write this off as "people making bad decisions" as much as you like but the truth is out there!

 

Saying, "Without wanting to belittle them," in reference to your parents and then doing precisely that gets you no respect from me.

 

The government of the day has a moral duty to tend to the needs of society as a whole. What price "One Nation" and "We are all in it together" under your philosophy. Would you just be content to say devil take the hindmost and let the poorest suffer whilst you look the other way?