Violence to girls and women.

[Se7enhills]

You must know some strange people - or drink some strange drinks to come up with the things you imagine.....

[longleyman]

It seems everyone forgets one thing, Britain is an island,

[Mecky]

Probably this will not make for a discussion but I have to make a statement. It makes me sick on reading reports of women and girls being violated,raped and killed in countries where Police stand and watch without taking any action. God! We are in the 21st century.

 

Coming in on this.

 

21st century? Not in some countries it isn't

[longleyman]

Coming in on this.

 

21st century? Not in some countries it isn't

 

28 Aug 2013 -Christian Aasiya Noreen "Asia" Bibi has been sentenced to death by hanging in Pakistan for drinking water "from a well belonging to Muslim women, .............This refers to headlines in various newspapers last year.

[Guest]

Indeed and this thread is also a classic example of how a racist agenda places blame within a whole race or religion and asserts that the individuals belonging to that race are deficient somehow and prone to, in this case violence against women.

 

These heinous crimes are very public and extreme manifestations of women's brutalisation by men. It's happening here and now - on our street - by people like us.

 

---------------------------

[Bounce]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here? You seem to be saying urban British Pakistani descent people are backward in contrast to modern urban Pakistani people because most of their ancesters came from the North? In regard to some of the ideas you and others have stated on here, recently and in the past, I might agree with you.

 

What I'm getting at, is that when a lot of British people hear Pakistan they immediately think backward country full of Taliban extremists. Most think that the British born Pakistanis must be more modern and forward thinking than those in the ancestral homeland. This couldn't be further from the truth as many people in the urban areas of Pakistan are more tolerant than British Pakistanis although that would never make the news as it's not a sensationalist headline. British Pakistanis, partly because of racism experienced in the UK and partly because of a northern tribal clan mentality have gravitated towards a ghettoization. It's not just Pakistanis of course, it's happened with other communities as well. That is the general point I'm making.

 

But just going back a few weeks, we were talking about tribal elders, in N.Pakistan, ordering village men to gang rape a woman as a punishment. You're not saying that would ever happen here, ordered by a Sharia court? Or that it would be acceptable even to the most old school? Because I don't think it would be acceptable to the majority of Sheffield Muslims I know of. So I think you're doing your fellow Pakistanis an injustice saying that.

 

Gang rapes do happen here. It would never be ordered by a Shariah Court as it goes against the fundamental teachings of Islam.

 

These types of punishment are usually ordered by a Panchayati court. An assembly of village elders who decide the verdict of the accused and then the punishment. It's not just practiced in Rural Pakistan but in Rural India as well in Hindu and Sikh villages. One common punishment for a women who is said to have brought shame upon the village is to blacken her face and parade her naked through her village and neighbouring villages. It has nothing to do with Islam whatsoever and everything to do with Indian cultural practices which should have been stopped by now but unfortunately still continue.

 

I'm not doing any injustice to anyone. Many people like you believe that Islam is responsible for the cases of honour killings, forced marriages and grooming gangs seen in the UK. In reality it's tribal culture in which the clan is of the upmost importance. So you have to marry within the clan usually to a first cousin and if you choose to marry someone from outside the clan who is also Muslim the consequences can vary. In most cases the marriage will be looked down upon, shunned and in more extreme cases it will lead to violence or even murder. For some growing up in the UK this cultural pressure is too much and they get married against their will and a small minority end up picking up teenage girls in the middle of the night.

 

What's important to remember is this culture is not religious duty or Pakistani culture. It is the culture of tribes from rural areas who want to keep the clan together as outsiders (usually other Muslims) cannot be trusted. I have a lot of friends from Pakistan and Kashmir and the majority of those from rural Azad Kashmir have faced this marriage dilemma or are currently facing it. On the other hand hardly any of my friends from the more urban areas of mainland Pakistan are facing the same issues.

 

I'd agree with that Zamo. Stripped down to the bare bones and leaving all the rhetoric and fear out of the equation, that about sums it up.

 

I think that education and bringing the 'homelands' up to modern day living standards is the key to all this. Sadly, most of the first world seems to be being dragged back rather than forwards at the moment, due to mass immigration from all points of the compass. So is it a losing battle?

 

In many countries of the world education is not available to people in the rural areas and therefore it's only those in the towns and cities who get educated. What you also don't seem to understand is that most educated people don't want to come to the UK. Some might come here to study but then they will move on to bigger and better things. Those who do settle here usually live in London and the South East and not the UK as a whole. The government also makes it more difficult for educated people with its own stupid policies which further attract unskilled immigration into the UK.

[Guest]

I'm saying that Islamic cultures struggle to change because challenges are countered with claims of blasphemy and there are serious consequences for that in those countries.

 

Let's face it. The progress we have made in the west is not because of religion but despite it. Religion is a man-made tool for controling and exploiting people and Islam has simply done a better job than other religions of holding on to its' power and influence... which is why the Muslim world has been less progressive. Until the grip that Islam has on the culture loosens, it will remain difficult to take progressive steps forward.

 

Hang on sec - pre Arabia Islam, women were treated like commodities, slaves, girls were burried alive simply for being GIRLS! Women had no say in matters, could not own or inherit, make any views.

 

Let's also not forget that outside of Arabia, conditions for women were no better- I am sure you have researced this:rolleyes:

 

So- if your point is true- that Islam is the underlying problem, lets see what Islam gave women:

 

1)Right to vote

2)Right to education

3)Right to inherit

4)Right to her own money

 

Muhammad himself saying 'women are the twins of men'. The Qu'ranic verse condemning the burying of girls and their treatment.

 

All this can be demonstrated with evidence from Islamic sources.

 

So please can you show how your so called argument stands- i want to see proof from the Qu'ran that treatment of women in certain parts of the world is due to Islam itself.

 

Or are you talking out of your backside again?

Unresearched garbage...ignited simply due to your dislike of the religion.

[Zamo]

Hang on sec - pre Arabia Islam, women were treated like commodities, slaves, girls were burried alive simply for being GIRLS! Women had no say in matters, could not own or inherit, make any views.

 

Let's also not forget that outside of Arabia, conditions for women were no better- I am sure you have researced this:rolleyes:

 

So- if your point is true- that Islam is the underlying problem, lets see what Islam gave women:

 

1)Right to vote

2)Right to education

3)Right to inherit

4)Right to her own money

 

Muhammad himself saying 'women are the twins of men'. The Qu'ranic verse condemning the burying of girls and their treatment.

 

All this can be demonstrated with evidence from Islamic sources.

 

So please can you show how your so called argument stands- i want to see proof from the Qu'ran that treatment of women in certain parts of the world is due to Islam itself.

 

Or are you talking out of your backside again?

Unresearched garbage...ignited simply due to your dislike of the religion.

 

You judge by referencing what it says in the sales brouchure whilst I judge based on the actual product delivered.

 

Go share your research with the women of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudia Arabia etc. Go see whether Islamic culture is living up to the sales broucher hype. And then come back and tell us which one of us is talking out of their backside.

[daneha]

Hang on sec - pre Arabia Islam, women were treated like commodities, slaves, girls were burried alive simply for being GIRLS! Women had no say in matters, could not own or inherit, make any views.

 

Let's also not forget that outside of Arabia, conditions for women were no better- I am sure you have researced this:rolleyes:

 

So- if your point is true- that Islam is the underlying problem, lets see what Islam gave women:

 

1)Right to vote

2)Right to education

3)Right to inherit

4)Right to her own money

 

Muhammad himself saying 'women are the twins of men'. The Qu'ranic verse condemning the burying of girls and their treatment.

 

All this can be demonstrated with evidence from Islamic sources.

 

So please can you show how your so called argument stands- i want to see proof from the Qu'ran that treatment of women in certain parts of the world is due to Islam itself.

 

Or are you talking out of your backside again?

Unresearched garbage...ignited simply due to your dislike of the religion.

 

The right to be hit by their husband if they disobey him.

 

http://quran.com/4/34

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

 

 

I can't find any verses that give a women the right to hit her husband if he disobeys her.

 

 

This verse says that a woman is equal in status to half a man.

 

http://quran.com/2/282

And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses.

[Guest]

You judge by referencing what it says in the sales brouchure whilst I judge based on the actual product delivered.

 

Go share your research with the women of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudia Arabia etc. Go see whether Islamic culture is living up to the sales broucher hype. And then come back and tell us which one of us is talking out of their backside.

 

Again, you failed answer the question and demonstrate.

 

1400 years ago, Islam gave women the rights that were unprecedented. Women became free, independent, respectable and integral part of the communities. They led, taught, and lived side-by-side men as their equal partner of the society.

 

But over time, cultures overtook faith- traditions overruled Islamic teachings and women lost what was given to them.