always Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Me and my edl gay mates just laughed at you sitting on a stool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister M Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 But who decides which (if any) is/are the 'truer' meanings of words and enforces the use of those 'truer' meanings? The Language Police? Language is as language does. It means what the community of users decides it means. If enough people ascribe a meaning to it in context, then that is what it means, whether you like it or not. And you try telling people they are not to give it any other meaning. You can express a wish to keep what you see as the 'true' meaning of a term, but if lots of people are already using it to mean something quite different, what do your propose to do about it?! I accept what you're saying but language doesn't exist in a morally neutral vacuum. Words are loaded with meanings. And the apparent use of the term 'gay' by so many young people to describe something crap, naff, and bad is pernicious because to quote Flaming Jimmy - "for those of us – a whole swath of society – who are actually gay, and for whom the word forms an important part of our identity and sense of self. It might not be obvious to those who aren't. But the casual, insulting use of the word, in schools and elsewhere, hurts us. In fact, it seeps into the subconscious. It fuels people's perception of gay people as wrong or bad. If a young person, growing up gay, constantly hears the word being used to refer to something that's disliked, useless or stupid, they are quite naturally going to feel that reflects on them. They are going to feel disliked, useless and stupid." I don't think as adults we should assume the role of the 'thought police' but negotiate and discuss with kids what is and isn't acceptable. As parents we may tell off our children if they use horrible names to describe people of a different colour because it's unacceptable and explain to them why. ---------- Post added 02-06-2014 at 23:57 ---------- Me and my edl gay mates just laughed at you sitting on a stool Was that really necessary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinfoilhat Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I don't agree, TFH. Both of the phrases you refer to are derogatory, and not acceptable. The contest is that both comments are used in a derisory context, and are offensive. Using derisory terms for sexuality as a slur is as out of order as using their gender, race or disability. (or even their religious choices) When my steplad was a tot, I had to take him to our GP for his booster jabs. He was only a little lad, and he cried, because, naturally, it hurt. I comforted him with a cuddle, saying "There, there. It's ok, it'll not hurt, in a minute, Shhh-shhh" and "loved him better". The Doctor, who was a miserable old so and so got very irate, as I tried to calm my upset little boy. He said "Oh, stop mollycoddling him! You'll turn him into a cissy!" I said "Excuse me, but he is hurt, and upset. I'm comforting him and calming him. That won't make him a cissy!" Another, similar incidence, was with the boys' birth mother. Their dad and I expected proper manners, and "please" and "thank-you" from the lads. Everyone commented about what a lovely polite lad they were. Their birth mother (who, I have to say, wasn't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer) wasn't happy that we expected (And got) good manners from them. In a disgusted voice, she said "Huh! Making them say please and thank you! You'll turn them into 'puffs'!" We were very offended. These are both instances of using derogatory terminology, about sexuality, which were offensive on a number of levels. it's not at all acceptable to use the "N" word or the "W" word about a black person, so why should it be acceptable to use terms like "Poof" or "Gay" in a derogatory manner? The only "poof" that is an acceptable as a term to use in "this" house, is when I refer to the oversized cushion/ stool that I rest my feet on. Again it's context. A grown up (particularly a parent!!) calling a child a puff is awful. A child calling a school mate a gay in the playground is, as long as it's banter and not bullying, not the same thing at all. Calling a car gay - it's an inanimate object! Taking it another stage further - cars again. Is it ok to call a certain car (I'm thinking golf soft tops - feel free to add your own) a hairdressers car? It could be driven by a gay builder - then where are we!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 That's a straw man surely. No, A strawman is when you pretend your opponent is taking a different position than they actually are in order to knock it down so as to give the impression that they have defeated the entire argument. What I did was to pose a hypothetical question (plainly so, I even explicitly labelled it hypothetical) that compared the acceptance of people using the word gay to mean 'bad' to the previously acceptable practise of using the word 'jew' to mean 'greedy'.At no point did I attempt to make out that Megalithic's actual position was that using the word Jew as an insult is ok. You have misused the term, that's not what I was doing at all. You can disagree and argue that my analogy was incorrect, as you have done, but that does not make my argument a strawman. If you want a good example of a strawman argument look to this post by aliceBB from this thread. In it she presents a version of the opposing argument that is easy to knock down, ie. that the word gay in this context should be banned and that banning words leads to all sorts of contradictions. In actuality not a single person here has advocated banning any words, so she was arguing against a strawman that she herself put up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amberleaf808 Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Gay means happy, I never forget to let passersby on my daily walk know how gay they look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megalithic Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 Again it's context. A grown up (particularly a parent!!) calling a child a puff is awful. A child calling a school mate a gay in the playground is, as long as it's banter and not bullying, not the same thing at all. Calling a car gay - it's an inanimate object! Taking it another stage further - cars again. Is it ok to call a certain car (I'm thinking golf soft tops - feel free to add your own) a hairdressers car? It could be driven by a gay builder - then where are we!?! Point well made. I'm wondering if the gay community ever hear it in this context, realise how often it is used, and understand that this new incarnation doesn't reflect on them in any negative way by the user ? Purely out of politeness i wouldn't use it in the presence of random gay people, as it most likely would be taken the wrong way and reflect wrongly on myself. Of course i may unknowingly have done so in the past. Context is the key word here i believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amberleaf808 Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 People its just words!!! I don't get it.... To much PC silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinfoilhat Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 People its just words!!! I don't get it.... To much PC silly. Shut up you child molester. Only joking but they're just words right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amberleaf808 Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Shut up you child molester. Only joking but they're just words right? To me yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 That's a straw man surely. The word Jew has and always been used to describe a Jewish person. Calling someone a Jew in derogatory sense (implying tightness with money) is playing on stereotypes and is wrong. Calling something gay (like the gay car earlier) isn't the same thing at all. So it's not playing on stereotypes when the kid gets called gay for say for example liking the wrong kind of films and TV programs (ones that are considered 'girly' for example), or even something as innocuous as not liking sports? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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