Alan Benett, 'A private Education is unfair'

[Mecky]

So the people who published it on google have either admitted it (hence no libel) or they are themselves being sued?

 

It wouldn't be slander by the way, that specifically refers to things said, not written.

 

That doesn't stop people from prosecuting though and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't appreciate me calling them a duffer flunker even if they admitted it themselves

[poppet2]

One of the problems with this country is the fact that it is still class ridden, which in my opinion is an obstacle to wealth generation and the overall benefit of the population.

 

Or when working class parents tell their children they are 'getting above themselves', when their children do well and move to a nicer area.

[Mecky]

One of the problems with this country is the fact that it is still class ridden, which in my opinion is an obstacle to wealth generation and the overall benefit of the population.

 

But people like to feel they are important and better than others even if they're not. People who look down on others set themselves apart/above and feel isolated. They are not going to win many friends and that includes their family

[L00b]

One of my observations, coming from a relatively classless society, is that a big issue this country has is that 'working class' is seen as a right and a badge of honour. The impact of this is that people aren't as pushy in trying to strive for better: what will your friends and family say!

That's too big a generalisation IMHO, tzijlstra.

 

I've married into and interacted with 'working class' in this country for close to 2 decades now, and from that experience I can vouch that, if stereotyping there must be, then 2 broad categories exist: a first which consistently denigrates academic achievement (correspondingly broadly to your observation), and a second which places the utmost importance upon academic achievement (for the kid(s) to achieve escape velocity and move up), with the second exceeding the first very significantly in terms of proportion.

 

Personally, I've been through both. I was fortunate to go through private schooling "at the right time", which instilled a work ethic, diligence and competitive spirit, that had been completely absent from the state schools in which I had been in until then, and then attended subsequently. In that time, I've seen plenty of thick pupils (I mean this as a simplification, not pejoratively) in both, and perhaps therein lies the difference between a thick pupil that went through private schooling (coerced into achieving academically, at least to a little extent) and a thick pupil that went through state schooling (not so pushed, but parked in special measures).

[tzijlstra]

That's too big a generalisation IMHO, tzijlstra.

 

I've married into and interacted with 'working class' in this country for close to 2 decades now, and from that experience I can vouch that, if stereotyping there must be, then 2 broad categories exist: a first which consistently denigrates academic achievement (correspondingly broadly to your observation), and a second which places the utmost importance upon academic achievement (for the kid(s) to achieve escape velocity and move up), with the second exceeding the first very significantly in terms of proportion.

 

Personally, I've been through both. I was fortunate to go through private schooling "at the right time", which instilled a work ethic, diligence and competitive spirit, that had been completely absent from the state schools in which I had been in until then, and then attended subsequently. In that time, I've seen plenty of thick pupils (I mean this as a simplification, not pejoratively) in both, and perhaps therein lies the difference between a thick pupil that went through private schooling (coerced into achieving academically, at least to a little extent) and a thick pupil that went through state schooling (not so pushed, but parked in special measures).

 

It depends, I suppose, on where you put the 'working class' measurement. Class systems are silly generalisations in general, so I agree with your point entirely, however, I know people that have low-pay jobs who never really pushed their kids to try and achieve more - uni isn't important to them, get some GCSE's maybe an NVQ and you're set for life, despite the opportunities being there for them.

 

I am no saying they are bad people by the way, they are lovely, they just don't see the point in trying to improve their situation through effort - education is the first victim of that. They seem to be 'content' and 'content will do'. But again, perhaps I am putting a bit too much of myself in that observation, I am a subjectivist after all.

[L00b]

It depends, I suppose, on where you put the 'working class' measurement.

It's extremely subjective, as you say, so I'm putting this measurement primarily at a psychological (motivational/mindset) level, with a light bias from the respective culture and wealth situations.

I know people that have low-pay jobs who never really pushed their kids to try and achieve more - uni isn't important to them, get some GCSE's maybe an NVQ and you're set for life, despite the opportunities being there for them.

 

I am no saying they are bad people by the way, they are lovely, they just don't see the point in trying to improve their situation through effort - education is the first victim of that. They seem to be 'content' and 'content will do'. But again, perhaps I am putting a bit too much of myself in that observation, I am a subjectivist after all.

But this is all equally true of better-off kids and parents, in more situations than many would care to recognise and admit.

 

How many kids did I see in my years of private schooling, with all the trappings and opportunities of true wealth ('higher' middle class and up), but academically-uninterested and consistently underperforming, with a characteristic lack of personal ambition (mummy and daddy will see me right/get me an exec job/etc. so what do I care for grades), vacuous to the point of abnegation and, more problematically (as a probable fundamental cause of all the above) completely ignored (one may say, unloved) by their parents...The kind of "well I've seen my mum and dad one hour this week as it's my birthday, and they've bought me a Golf GTI" kids. Not just a stereotype - they did (most probably do still) exist, I went to school with some. As potent an advert for the "money doesn't buy happiness" ditty as I've ever seen, anywhere. I pitied them at the time.

[Mecky]

It's extremely subjective, as you say, so I'm putting this measurement primarily at a psychological (motivational/mindset) level, with a light bias from the respective culture and wealth situations.

But this is all equally true of better-off kids and parents, in more situations than many would care to recognise and admit.

 

How many kids did I see in my years of private schooling, with all the trappings and opportunities of true wealth ('higher' middle class and up), but academically-uninterested and consistently underperforming, with a characteristic lack of personal ambition (mummy and daddy will see me right/get me an exec job/etc. so what do I care for grades), vacuous to the point of abnegation and, more problematically (as a probable fundamental cause of all the above) completely ignored (one may say, unloved) by their parents...

 

It does happen though, it's just one of those things and unlikely to change

[L00b]

It does happen though, it's just one of those things and unlikely to change

Oh, absolutely Mecky. I daresay it's human nature: money doesn't make anyone a good parent, a caring and humanistic nature does, and no money can buy that - only personal development and nurturing in earlier years.

 

In that context, private education can be as much a sign of good parenting (investing towards a perceived better start for one's kids) as a sign of bad parenting (park one's kids in boarding school and be free of hands-on parental responsibilities for terms on end).

[Cyclone]

That doesn't stop people from prosecuting though and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't appreciate me calling them a duffer flunker even if they admitted it themselves

 

If they've admitted it then you've got the absolute defence of truth.

[mjw47]

One of my observations, coming from a relatively classless society, is that a big issue this country has is that 'working class' is seen as a right and a badge of honour. The impact of this is that people aren't as pushy in trying to strive for better: what will your friends and family say!

 

This is of course a generalisation and doesn't go for everybody, but I suspect this exact comment will reveal what I mean.

 

There is some truth in that. My father was never comfortable with the fact that I worked my way up from 'the tools' into sales and then management.

 

When I started my own business he couldn't really understand what my motivation was.

 

Weird in a way as his father was a self employed 'Little Mester' in the cutlery trade and his grandfather, great grandfather and great great grandfather had owned their own cutlery manufacturing companies.

 

So it wasn't as if we had always been working class employees and I'd let the side down in some way.

 

The type of class division I'm referring to is where the so called upper class actually look down on anyone who works for a living.

 

The Germans for instance have a huge amount of respect for engineers whereas over here they tend to be regarded as oily handed workers with little respect accorded to them.

 

My brother-in-law is a highly qualified engineer who spent 25 years at James Neill's, a number of years ago he went to Germany to give a number of lectures on the subject.

 

He couldn't believe the respect which was shown to him over there, he apparently qualified for the title Herr Doktor and was chuffed to be addressed as such.

 

On his return I advised him not to get used to it as he had bugger all chance of a continuance of that attitude.

 

This is probably one of the reasons why Germany is the greatest exporter of top quality engineering in the world and we have lagged behind.