Alan Benett, 'A private Education is unfair'

[mjw47]

ANYONE can acquire the VERY BEST connections if they put in the effort but if they have talent, they will be sort out by the best connections, they won't even have to go looking.

 

---------- Post added 18-06-2014 at 19:59 ----------

 

 

 

I disagree, there is a certain clique in operation in most countries, and whilst you can definitely reach a certain level by hard work and talent, you will need to have extremely rare gifts to overcome that ingrained prejudice.

 

Starting your own business and sidestepping that type of nonsense is one way around it but even though someone may have talent not everyone has the nerve and ability to 'go it alone.'

 

As an example of acquiring wealth through nothing more than 'good connections' you need look no further than Mark Thatcher.

 

The Sunday Times rich list estimates his wealth at £60 million.

 

After one of the finest educations money could provide he left Harrow with two O levels.

 

He then proceeded to fail his accountancy exams at Touche Ross on three occasions.

 

He has absolutely no discernable talent, and according to every report I've ever heard from people who know him he is an obnoxious moron.

 

And yet, knowing the right people has provided him with significant wealth.

[tzijlstra]

I have the idea that the big problem with state schools is that the English system puts kids of all abilities together in one class. It is all very egalitarian, but in the end it means that the achieving kids are having to do a lot of things at the pace of their slower class-mates, as well as following the same curriculum.

 

In the Netherlands there is a tiered system with differing curricula and outcomes. Kids with little academic ability are not forced to do a lot of theory but get practical education instead, kids with good academic ability get hardly any practical education and more theory, plus they stay in secondary longer so they are able to go straight to Uni/Poly afterwards whereas the "lower set" goes on into college and learn a trade.

 

There are relatively few school leavers without qualifications this way and kids and teachers are more comfortable with the adjusted levels. As this is not the case in the UK I can understand that parents of kids that could achieve more are prepared to pay for the better education, if able to do so, the option exists in the Netherlands as well but there are far fewer privately educated children there.

[Moosey]

Even if that were true, which it isn't, it isn't justification for charitable status.

 

Sainsbury's do loads to assist state schools, but they aren't charities. Fee paying schools are businesses and should pay tax like any others.

 

I'm sorry, but have you any experience of the charitable work done by said schools? I have. I've made that clear. I've first hand experience of it, through a child enrolled at one of the local independents. I've seen the work they do.

 

Whether people think that they deserve charitable status as a result of that is subjective, but if you think I'm wrong, I'd urge you to contact any of the three in Sheffield and ask them outright. I think you'll be surprised.

 

---------- Post added 18-06-2014 at 20:57 ----------

 

The problem that I see with private education is that it allows a relatively small section of society to buy an advantage for their children.

 

That same relatively small section happen to be the very same people who are in charge of state education for the majority.

 

It is therefore actually against their own personal interest to improve state education and bring it on a level with private education.

 

We have seen recently how the political class react when it comes to their own self interest.

 

Even the few amongst them that purport to support state education make sure that they live in the catchment area of the best state schools and are still buying an advantage.

 

I don't blame anyone for paying for private education. We all wish the best for our children and I have several relatives who have been privately educated and three who are still attending private schools.

 

The question is should it be allowed for the wealthy to gain such an advantage?

 

This does not comply with meritocracy and the survival of the fittest which would be of most benefit to society.

 

As for the statement that anyone can get rich with enough effort, whilst I agree to a point there is no doubt that connections and inheritance can be a huge advantage and can prove far more crucial than talent and effort.

 

It is no coincidence that in the recent Sunday Times rich list only one Englishman featured in Britain's top ten richest people.

 

He was number ten and was the Duke of Westminister. His particular talent? He managed to get born.

 

No problem with that to a degree, but it's innovative thinkers and job creators we need, not people living off their ancestors acquisitions whether or not they were fairly acquired.

 

I see your point, however I object to the use of the term "wealthy". I'm far from wealthy, yet can afford independent school. It's nowhere near the cost people think it is.

 

A friend of mine sends his daughter to an equivalent nursery to the one my daughter attended. Both are private nurseries. The fees for both, on four days a week, are around £700 a month.

 

The first six years at independent school cost less than that per month in fees. My friend, now being aware of that fact, is considering the same school. Neither of us are wealthy. I became accustomed to paying the fees to nursery every month, and adjusted my lifestyle to allow that. School is just a continuation of that. I'm certainly far, far from wealthy. I've just had to afford the nursery fees, and school is no more expensive.

 

---------- Post added 18-06-2014 at 21:01 ----------

 

Agree. I was working in a private school and the kids were wanting to learn, which has probably come from their (well heeled) parents. At my local comp (a decent one at that) I and many of my friends just wanted to kick a ball about. We were far from the worst behaved though.

 

Having said all that Warwick university did a study showing kids who went to a public school were less likely to get a first class honours degree than state school educated kids.

 

Totally agree with you there. Numbers help, but there is a vast difference in results with a class of motivated children.

 

There are some fantastic state teachers. A friend's husband is, I know, an amazing teacher in terms of knowledge, ability, interaction and his ability to interest a class. That said, he still has to deal with the children who inevitably do not care, and that affects his ability to teach. He openly admits that. I think personally the nature of the class makes a huge difference.

[davyboy]

I have the idea that the big problem with state schools is that the English system puts kids of all abilities together in one class. It is all very egalitarian, but in the end it means that the achieving kids are having to do a lot of things at the pace of their slower class-mates, as well as following the same curriculum.

 

In the Netherlands there is a tiered system with differing curricula and outcomes. Kids with little academic ability are not forced to do a lot of theory but get practical education instead, kids with good academic ability get hardly any practical education and more theory, plus they stay in secondary longer so they are able to go straight to Uni/Poly afterwards whereas the "lower set" goes on into college and learn a trade.

 

There are relatively few school leavers without qualifications this way and kids and teachers are more comfortable with the adjusted levels. As this is not the case in the UK I can understand that parents of kids that could achieve more are prepared to pay for the better education, if able to do so, the option exists in the Netherlands as well but there are far fewer privately educated children there.

You have just described the system in England before Crossman et al ****** it up

[Coutts]

Starting your own business and sidestepping that type of nonsense is one way around it but even though someone may have talent not everyone has the nerve and ability to 'go it alone.'

 

Then that's on them. Fine if they retire quietly into their den of mediocrity and be silent, but not fine if they start moaning and crying for fairness because of their inadequacy. They have failed themselves, fail quietly please, otherwise you might distract the winners from creating all the jobs.

 

After one of the finest educations money could provide he left Harrow with two O levels. He then proceeded to fail his accountancy exams at Touche Ross on three occasions. He has absolutely no discernable talent, and according to every report I've ever heard from people who know him he is an obnoxious moron. And yet, knowing the right people has provided him with significant wealth.

 

This is my point, stop fixating on the chosen few who have had it easy and start focusing on yourself. There will always be examples of those who have had an easy life handed on a plate, there are however many more cases of those who just whine when they won't even try to better themselves. They just want to cry fairness until someone hands them a free lunch on a plate also. Well I've got news for them, it ain't going to happen, so now what.

 

STOP moaning, START doing!

[poppet2]

I'd say it was more about class sizes and not having a load of demotivated, disruptive scroats to deal with.

 

But that's my point, you don't get disruptive scroats in private schools because of the threat of them being expelled from their exclusive education, which their parents paid dearly for.

 

They have manners as well, they respect teachers and want to be educated.

[tzijlstra]

You have just described the system in England before Crossman et al ****** it up

 

Interesting, I thought it had always been like this since Victorian times! (It's tradition old boy!)

[Guest sibon]

I'm sorry, but have you any experience of the charitable work done by said schools? I have. I've made that clear. I've first hand experience of it, through a child enrolled at one of the local independents. I've seen the work they do.

 

Whether people think that they deserve charitable status as a result of that is subjective, but if you think I'm wrong, I'd urge you to contact any of the three in Sheffield and ask them outright. I think you'll be surprised..

 

I haven't seen any of the charitable work that they do. Which is rather the point. I've spent the last thirty years working in state schools in Sheffield, in a variety of positions. I've never experienced any of the Sheffield independent schools engaging in any unusual charitable work. I say unusual, because all schools carry out lots of charitable work.

 

In any case, doing charitable work doesn't make them a charity. I've no problem with the existence of private schools, but we need some honesty here. They are businesses that sell advantage and privilege. Fair enough if that is how you choose to spend your money. But they are a business not a charity.

 

At the moment, they are just another tax break for the wealthy.

[Moosey]

I haven't seen any of the charitable work that they do. Which is rather the point. I've spent the last thirty years working in state schools in Sheffield, in a variety of positions. I've never experienced any of the Sheffield independent schools engaging in any unusual charitable work. I say unusual, because all schools carry out lots of charitable work.

 

In any case, doing charitable work doesn't make them a charity. I've no problem with the existence of private schools, but we need some honesty here. They are businesses that sell advantage and privilege. Fair enough if that is how you choose to spend your money. But they are a business not a charity.

 

At the moment, they are just another tax break for the wealthy.

 

In which case can I suggest you call one of them and create some links? They will be happy to hear from you.

 

I've also explained that I'm not wealthy. Not at all. Im just used to paying the same amount since my daughter was 6 months.

 

 

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[Coutts]

What about the parents who can afford to buy property within the catchment areas of the best performing schools to ensure their kids get the best education, should that be outlawed too?