Happ Hazzard Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 They only put that up after pressure from thousands of licence payers It doesn't matter about the numbers, the narrative in all of the media is that austerity is nearly over and recovery is on its way, the state broadcaster has a duty to present another viewpoint, it didn't. It also doesn't show the victims of austerity either, like here in Sheffield where a man shot himself after failing the brutal ATOS tests. Look at the language you are using there. "Failing" a test that decides whether or not you are fit to work. In what kind of society does "failing" a test mean you are deemed fit to work? This man shot himself because he had been on benefits for years and was terrified of having to work for a living. He's a casualty of the benefits system, a system that was set up to help people but has ended up getting so out of control it is ruining and ending people's lives. ---------- Post added 22-06-2014 at 19:50 ---------- There are far less people fraud try claiming benefits than there are people committing some kind of fraud. And the money not paid in tax is far more than the money claimed in fraudulent benefits! ---------- Post added 22-06-2014 at 19:16 ---------- Spending money we don't have? Are you serious? You mean on pointless nuclear weapons and high speed trains, don't you? How are nuclear weapons pointless? And high speed trains? Don't you think we need decent public transport, along with the best in the world like the trains in Japan and France? Rather than cramming more and more people onto roads that were overcrowded even 20 years ago. When the alternative is spending it on the benefits system, and ensuring that 20 years time there will be just more and more people demanding more and more from the government, there is no choice at all. People have to wake up and take control of their own destiny instead of sitting back and blaming the government for their own failure to do anything with their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzo77 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Look at the language you are using there. "Failing" a test that decides whether or not you are fit to work. In what kind of society does "failing" a test mean you are deemed fit to work? This man shot himself because he had been on benefits for years and was terrified of having to work for a living. He's a casualty of the benefits system, a system that was set up to help people but has ended up getting so out of control it is ruining and ending people's lives. ---------- Post added 22-06-2014 at 19:50 ---------- How are nuclear weapons pointless? And high speed trains? Don't you think we need decent public transport, along with the best in the world like the trains in Japan and France? Rather than cramming more and more people onto roads that were overcrowded even 20 years ago. When the alternative is spending it on the benefits system, and ensuring that 20 years time there will be just more and more people demanding more and more from the government, there is no choice at all. People have to wake up and take control of their own destiny instead of sitting back and blaming the government for their own failure to do anything with their lives. The current railway system could be improved at a fraction of the cost. HS2 is a massive waste of money. I agree that people should take responsibility for their own lives. That doesn't mean I should sit back and be spoon fed some crap that I never wanted to eat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halibut Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Look at the language you are using there. "Failing" a test that decides whether or not you are fit to work. In what kind of society does "failing" a test mean you are deemed fit to work? This man shot himself because he had been on benefits for years and was terrified of having to work for a living. He's a casualty of the benefits system, a system that was set up to help people but has ended up getting so out of control it is ruining and ending people's lives. ---------- Post added 22-06-2014 at 19:50 ---------- How are nuclear weapons pointless? And high speed trains? Don't you think we need decent public transport, along with the best in the world like the trains in Japan and France? Rather than cramming more and more people onto roads that were overcrowded even 20 years ago. When the alternative is spending it on the benefits system, and ensuring that 20 years time there will be just more and more people demanding more and more from the government, there is no choice at all. People have to wake up and take control of their own destiny instead of sitting back and blaming the government for their own failure to do anything with their lives. Because we can't use them. Duh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happ Hazzard Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Because we can't use them. Duh! But they are a good deterrent against war. They've largely prevented wars between nations that both have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Because we can't use them. Duh! They're perfectly serviceable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daneha Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 More or less, they need money to survive in capitalism, but that's not really what you meant and you know it If you class everyone that works as a slave there's nothing wrong with the minority that do nothing also becoming slaves by doing some work for their money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erebus Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Well the USA and UK are upgrading their nuclear bombs right now, and Russia and China seem the perfect place to test their effectiveness, and if they were used what could anyone anywhere do? People are irrelevant in this new game plan, oppose or question hard enough and you are obviously either a terrorist or a sympathizer. We live in an Orwellian world where double speak, Defense = Aggression, democracy = doing what you are told, and freedom = the ability to choose products in a supermarket or TV channels. You do not demonstrate when the police is slowly being militarized do you? When a government and business collude in order to exploit the population to their detriment, its called fascism. Welcome to the future where we will soon have a thought police, not just for returning fighters in the middle east, who all need locking up because they think the wrong way. We approach this minority report/ Orwellian future blindly unaware how its insidious cancer will influence us all completely, as the subliminal message is already seen by many as common sense, innit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*_ash_* Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Make work pay It does pay. If you mean pay more (i.e increase NMW), then your Maths wouldn't add up. In an exaggerated example to show: if NMW was put up to £100/hour from next week, then everything would go up in price to compensate, effectively making benefits worthless. Of course this wouldn't happen because benefits would have to increase to bring it into balance, otherwise everyone entirely reliant on dole would be penniless. And who would want that? Doing this increase wouldn't solve anything. I'm going to quote Funky Gib's post in this with an example, as he/she also quoted my post, see below. , reduce the effective marginal tax on the lowest income earners from 100% to 47%. The highest effective marginal tax on the highest income earners is 47%. This is nonsense though. You've argued this before. If A isn't working and getting everything paid for by the state, then A gets a job at the same money as they were receiving, then of course they may start paying income tax*, but importantly paying for all the things that were provided from the state in the first place (i.e Housing, food, don't really need anymore examples, these are probably the biggys). The reason why I say nonsense is because I think you believe that housing costs, food costs etc ARE taxes, because they can't be gained in any other way, other than being paid for. *why I agreed with LibDems call for higher min tax bracket, though I said £10k about 4 years ago, I think £12k is right at today's rates, this has been implemented by the coal'n It's quite similar to what Mecky argued later in the thread, about slavery. I do see your two points, because in this society, there ISN'T the choice really to go and build your own house on some land, so you are effectively FORCED into buying somewhere, or renting somewhere, and paying all the things that go with it (Ctax/Power etc.) That is our society though, and it's spent 100s/1000s of years of altering rules, changing things etc, to get to this. I'm not sure how we can change that. Perhaps if I was in government I'd find a wad of cash, buy a very large island, put nothing on it, and let anyone go there and start their own community. Make their own rules, etc. Can't see it happening though. It would be an interesting experiment. I'd be an eager viewer to the consequences. The majority of the benefits system is the transfer of money to the wealthiest, i.e. those who are older and more likely to own land & property, from the poorest - general taxes and regressive taxes, such VAT, alcohol duty, cigarette duty, permission to work papers, permission to trade papers, permission to prove age papers, permission to travel papers, permission to travel by a car/train/bus/bike/hgv etc. papers, the regressive 'hidden' income tax - NI. You could probably have this. Remove all taxes and duty (except income tax). The most significant first thing that would go is being able to ring 999 and get an ambulance, and get taken to a hosp and get fixed. The main outgoings of the country's spending is benefits (pensions), and the NHS. - What's the point of debating 'statistics' that you just made up? I quoted this Funky... verses millions claimed lost in fraudulent benefit claims I think some people group 'genuine benefit claimants', 'genuine benefit scroungers' (not illegal as isn't tax avoidance), and 'fraudulent benefit claimers' together. It's everywhere. Even MPs do on Question Time when they are caught out. I hope you aren't thinking I was doing the same. I was pointing out this by highlighting it in the post. But to answer your point... There can be accurate figures for how much is fraudulently claimed when people are caught doing it. There can be estimates to how much is being fraudulently claimed, which may or may not be accurate. The fact that you quoted me as 'making things up' and not monza, probably shows your stance. Though, as it happens, the figures are probably right I think. I don't think that much is fraudulently claimed when compared to genuinely claimed (or scrounged, if that is the case, or the viewpoint). - However, I've seen workplaces where lots of staff are working 16 hours, and WANT to work more hours, and importantly, hours that are available! but their benefits will be affected and they will be WORSE off by working more hours. So more people have to be employed. These people are capable of working, and want to work more hours, but it is completely illogical to work more for less money. I don't make things up Funky, I write what I observe. And I observe quite a lot. I don't think your comment was fair, tbh. ---------- Post added 23-06-2014 at 02:04 ---------- A post since I started writing... People are irrelevant in this new game plan, oppose or question hard enough and you are obviously either a terrorist or a sympathizer. We live in an Orwellian world where double speak, Defense = Aggression, democracy = doing what you are told, and freedom Welcome to the future where we will soon have a thought police, not just for returning fighters in the middle east, who all need locking up because they think the wrong way. We approach this minority report/ Orwellian future blindly unaware how its insidious cancer will influence us all completely, as the subliminal message is already seen by many as common sense, innit! People wrote similar things 500 years ago, 400 years ago, 300 years ago, 200 years ago, 100 years ago, 50 years ago... etc. They probably said the things earlier than that but didn't have access to pen and paper, or didn't have the ability to write. - You remind me of a photocopier erebus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinfoilhat Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Well the USA and UK are upgrading their nuclear bombs right now, and Russia and China seem the perfect place to test their effectiveness, and if they were used what could anyone anywhere do? People are irrelevant in this new game plan, oppose or question hard enough and you are obviously either a terrorist or a sympathizer. We live in an Orwellian world where double speak, Defense = Aggression, democracy = doing what you are told, and freedom = the ability to choose products in a supermarket or TV channels. You do not demonstrate when the police is slowly being militarized do you? When a government and business collude in order to exploit the population to their detriment, its called fascism. Welcome to the future where we will soon have a thought police, not just for returning fighters in the middle east, who all need locking up because they think the wrong way. We approach this minority report/ Orwellian future blindly unaware how its insidious cancer will influence us all completely, as the subliminal message is already seen by many as common sense, innit! Why are more likely to nuke Russia now than we were in 40 years of Cold War? Why are nuking china at all - they are major trading partners? Pointless having all these major corporations running the show behind the scenes if they can't make their tat in china to sell to us at a huge profit. Do these chaps coming back from Iraq not worry you? They are fighting a holy war against Muslims who follow a different version of Islam. What do you think their views on the west are? I'm pretty sure it's not live and let live. They should be questioned. You won't be on the bus they blow up, or be the soldier they behead in the street. You'll be safe in your mental institution/Chinese intelligence facility/mums spare room (delete as appropriate) so can continue exuding the joys of living in china and Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mecky Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 If you class everyone that works as a slave there's nothing wrong with the minority that do nothing also becoming slaves by doing some work for their money. If they worked they wouldn't be doing nothing and if they do work why not give them a proper salary What work would they do anyway? ---------- Post added 23-06-2014 at 08:05 ---------- Who else do you think is going to suffer from cuts than the people who rely the most on government spending? Again, what is the alternative? Keep spending money we don't have? Or let me guess, "tax the rich more". Fine, do that, and then spend the money. Don't spend the money and then complain that people aren't paying as much tax as you'd like them to. The alternative is do not make cuts because it is has having no effect anyway and remember the people who are being punished have the right to vote ... although a few people have suggested they shouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.