Treatment for Obesity on NHS

[onewheeldave]

For some reason the constant use of the word "lean" to describe what many of us would usually call "slim, skinny, wiry, thin or whatver" hints more at a worrying quasi-religious evangelism more than anything else in this thread.

 

Wow, what a bizarre little post

 

So 7hills now objects to me using the word 'lean', due to it's quasi-religious overtones

 

I'd love to see your dictionary dude

 

Here's a cut-and-paste from a dictionary that doesn't mention the 'quasi-religious' aspect of 'lean', but does go into how some of the other alternatives are a bit loaded-

 

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/lean_2[/url]

 

WORD CHOICE:

 

thin, slim, skinny, slender, lean, slight

Thin is a general word meaning that someone has little fat on their body. It is usually, but not always, disapproving

• He's much too thin.

• Teenage girls all seem to want to be thin.

Slim means thin in an attractive way

• her lovely slim figure

Skinny is a fairly informal word meaning very thin, which is usually disapproving

• ridiculously skinny models

Slender, lean, and slight are used mostly in written English.

Slender means thin in an attractive and graceful way

• long slender legs

Lean means thin and looking strong and fit

• a tall, lean athlete

Slight means thin and delicate-looking

• Her brother was very slight and looked younger than he was.

➔ See also thin

 

---------- Post added 26-07-2014 at 09:04 ----------

 

I'm not saying it doesn't work for you dude. It obviously has, so far. But you talk it up as a cure for obesity, which it isn't. It's nothing more than a fad diet, like the Atkins diet.

 

There's plenty of individuals who've been on fruit-based diets for many years (7.5 for freelee, 10+ for durianrider- all documented on youtube) who are still thriving on it: how can that be a 'fad' diet?

 

The juice based diets documented on 'fat, sick and nearly dead' (available free on youtube, but, originally broadcast on terrestial tv- I think channel 5?) were relatiively short term (60 days) and meant mainly to shift lots of excess weight and clear the chronic health issues, to enable the individuals to then shift to a sustainable long term healthy diet.

 

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Cross_(filmmaker)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Cross_(filmmaker)][/url]

 

According to Cross, the first three to five days, he felt groggy and unstable. However, after consuming only juice for five days, he started feeling well both physically and mentally.[11] After 49 days, he lost 67 pounds, his total cholesterol dropped from 204 to 135 and his LDL cholesterol went from 132 to 86. By day 61, Cross lost 82 pounds and decreased his medicine dosage.[1] After drinking juice for the first 60 days, he lost 100 pounds[4] and reported a complete loss of his urticaria symptoms.[6] Following the 60-day juice fast, he consumed only foods derived from plants and no animal-based or processed food for 90 days.[8]

 

......Cross does not recommend the diet as a long term solution and only recommends it as a reboot for the body.[10] According to him, he took up the diet because he wanted a circuit breaker to stop what he was doing and not to adopt it as a permanent lifestyle.[4] One of the misconceptions that Cross tries to correct is that people think he consumes nothing but juice. "That’s not a proper, healthy way to live," adds Cross.[2]

 

---------- Post added 26-07-2014 at 10:01 ----------

 

And, it's saturday, which means the 'superjuiceme' video is now available to watch free (sat and sun only)-

 

The 'Superjuiceme' documentary is available to watch for free again this coming weekend- website here:

 

http://www.superjuiceme.com/

 

If anyone's got an obesity and/or chronic illness issue, it's well worth a watch.

 

You will have to give an email address, and you will get an occasional marketing email, but, I highly recommend the documentary as it's a chance to see what happens when a group of obese and/or chronically ill pharmacutically dependant individuals are taken to an island for a month long juice fast.

 

(There is a doctor in attendance monitoring bloods etc, despite the cynicism associated with these kinds of dietary interventions, there are plenty of qualified medical professionals backing them).

 

[KatieSoze]

Maybe we should just let the doctors and people who work in the NHS who actually know what they're on about decide.

[Cyclone]

No- documentaries: they clearly, to anyone who actually watches them (you possibly wouldn't realise this, not having watched them yourself) document obese/chronically ill individuals becoming well and losing lots of weight, via short term fruit/juice diet.

They quite clearly show exactly what the producer wants them to show.

There are no control groups, there is no attempt to show a balanced opinion. They are fruitarian propaganda.

 

 

 

Presumably you have no issue with people watching the vids and making up their own minds?

 

Or do you....?

 

Of course not, and I've no objection to people with bad skin watching adverts for skin treatment either.

[glenys]

In the end the thread is about "treatment for obesity on the NHS". I work for the NHS and see what is happening on the inside everyday. Most of it is a struggle to reach targets at the least possible cost.

 

I have been overweight for a few years now, coinciding with a chronic condition which is now proven to have some clinical weight and is recognised by NICE as a disability.

 

However for years it was classed as "somatic", and just as a series of symptoms of depression which was treated with antidepressants. When I was in my 20s I weighed around 9 stone which was healthy for my height, but I always felt "fat", so have always watched my diet and ate well.

 

However despite this, and an active job, my weight piled on and I am now 12 stone and in my late 40s. 3 stone is not a lot to put on over 20 years, yet I am classed as "obese" on the weight charts. I have been told that if I had been 12 stone in the 1990s I would have been in the "overweight" category then.

 

I found out recently - from getting my records from the GP -that when I was younger I had a low thyroid blood result (my first thyroid test ever) - it was one "point" above the level I could be treated at. Now my thyroid is slightly worse, yet the lower threshold for treatment has dropped by 3 "points" since my first blood test. I feel worse, yet cannot get treatment, whereas all those years ago I would have been elegable.

 

So above are two incidents where the NHS has changed, trying to save money over the years - thyroxine costs around £5 a month, or something like that, whereas some of the muscle relaxants I have been on are around £30 a month, so it is false economy.

 

I am only one case, there are thousands more. I have kept my weight stable for 10 years now, and have done that through careful eating and good mobility (I clock up 15 -18,000 steps at work despite arthritic knees) - yet I am still "obese".

 

There are many people heavier than me, and yes I know a lot of folk who sit around sedentary all day, do jigsaws, and "eat to treat", and who cannot be bothered to do much about it. Those are the ones who slip off the radar, who never go to the GP with weight related issues until it's too late and their health is suffering through bad diet etc.

 

But there are plenty more like me who have tried for years to keep stable and as fit as possible, who are labelled by the system as fat and lazy because we still LOOK like the ones who couldn't care less, and who the NHS aren't going to be any use to until it becomes an expensive matter.

 

There ...Rant over!

[JFKvsNixon]

In the end the thread is about "treatment for obesity on the NHS". I work for the NHS and see what is happening on the inside everyday. Most of it is a struggle to reach targets at the least possible cost.

 

I have been overweight for a few years now, coinciding with a chronic condition which is now proven to have some clinical weight and is recognised by NICE as a disability.

 

However for years it was classed as "somatic", and just as a series of symptoms of depression which was treated with antidepressants. When I was in my 20s I weighed around 9 stone which was healthy for my height, but I always felt "fat", so have always watched my diet and ate well.

 

However despite this, and an active job, my weight piled on and I am now 12 stone and in my late 40s. 3 stone is not a lot to put on over 20 years, yet I am classed as "obese" on the weight charts. I have been told that if I had been 12 stone in the 1990s I would have been in the "overweight" category then.

 

I found out recently - from getting my records from the GP -that when I was younger I had a low thyroid blood result (my first thyroid test ever) - it was one "point" above the level I could be treated at. Now my thyroid is slightly worse, yet the lower threshold for treatment has dropped by 3 "points" since my first blood test. I feel worse, yet cannot get treatment, whereas all those years ago I would have been elegable.

 

So above are two incidents where the NHS has changed, trying to save money over the years - thyroxine costs around £5 a month, or something like that, whereas some of the muscle relaxants I have been on are around £30 a month, so it is false economy.

 

I am only one case, there are thousands more. I have kept my weight stable for 10 years now, and have done that through careful eating and good mobility (I clock up 15 -18,000 steps at work despite arthritic knees) - yet I am still "obese".

 

There are many people heavier than me, and yes I know a lot of folk who sit around sedentary all day, do jigsaws, and "eat to treat", and who cannot be bothered to do much about it. Those are the ones who slip off the radar, who never go to the GP with weight related issues until it's too late and their health is suffering through bad diet etc.

 

But there are plenty more like me who have tried for years to keep stable and as fit as possible, who are labelled by the system as fat and lazy because we still LOOK like the ones who couldn't care less, and who the NHS aren't going to be any use to until it becomes an expensive matter.

 

There ...Rant over!

 

Maybe the changes in threshold have come about through greater knowledge. For example taking thyroxin when you don't need to can cause hyperthyroidism, which in turn can lead to damage to the heart and even heart failure.

[onewheeldave]

They quite clearly show exactly what the producer wants them to show.

As do all documentaries. Are all documentaries, in your view, worthless?

 

---------- Post added 28-07-2014 at 10:04 ----------

 

There are no control groups, there is no attempt to show a balanced opinion. They are fruitarian propaganda.

 

Why would there be- it's a documentary, not a medical study. Should all documentaries, in your view, have a control group?

 

I think the key point here is that you don't need to be arguing that the documentary isn't a scientific study or medical trail- I know it isn't, I've stated that on several occasions.

 

It's a film documenting obese/chronically ill people losing the weight and becoming well when switching to a plant based lat fat/high carb diet, or a short term juice based diet. It doesn't claim to be a study.

[glenys]

"Maybe the changes in threshold have come about through greater knowledge. For example taking thyroxin when you don't need to can cause hyperthyroidism, which in turn can lead to damage to the heart and even heart failure".

 

Yes, I have taken that into account, and it could be one of the reasons for reassessing it. However, I have most of the symptoms of Hypothyroidism, and I do know my pituitary (TSH) test results were very low when I was in my teens, and they rose a lot (but still "normal") - that prompted the first proper thyroid test I had.

 

I have been told that the "normal" values of blood test results change according to the amount of people who have tests - it works on some mathematical bell-curve, or something like that, not sure as maths isn't my strongest subject. I was told though that if more people present with results on the lower or higher values of the normal range, it automatically widens the range to accomodate. Normal does not necessarily mean healthy :-(

 

There are 2 professional bodies that deal with this - The British Thyroid association (whose guidelines the NHS tends to use) and Thyroid UK, who believe we should measure the tests as they do in the USA.

 

I would have been treated in the US with my results - are the US behind with their medical knowledge? Many GPs in the UK have been ostracised for following the Thyroid UK guidelines, and many only practice privately now.

 

Now, I don't know if Thyroxine is a panacea for my weight problems or not - but it shows that the NHS is missing out on a potential moneysaving scheme if it did affect obesity. Things are being found out all the time. GPs I am afraid can be very guided by drug companies first, and then by non biased research later, when mistakes have been made.

 

Use of statins is one of those things, now, and that is linked to obesity, as in heart failure etc. I was put on statins as my cholesterol was high - another cost to the NHS - only to find that even a slightly underactive thyroid makes your body produce excess cholesterol.

 

So antidepressants, muscle relaxants and statins - all costs the NHS, when one low cheap dose of Thyroxine MIGHT help, but GPs can't even do that if they wanted.

[Cyclone]

As do all documentaries. Are all documentaries, in your view, worthless?

Only the ones that are trying to 'sell' something. No documentary is as valid as a scientific study though.

Why would there be- it's a documentary, not a medical study. Should all documentaries, in your view, have a control group?

You say documentary, I say advert.

 

I think the key point here is that you don't need to be arguing that the documentary isn't a scientific study or medical trail- I know it isn't, I've stated that on several occasions.

I'm repeating it for the benefit of anyone else, since you're using it as 'evidence'.

 

It's a film documenting obese/chronically ill people losing the weight and becoming well when switching to a plant based lat fat/high carb diet, or a short term juice based diet. It doesn't claim to be a study.

 

We might as well include America's greatest loser as evidence that lots of exercise cures obesity. And recommend that people do that.

 

(I would in fact recommend exercise if anyone were asking, but not because of a TV entertainment program).

[JFKvsNixon]

"Maybe the changes in threshold have come about through greater knowledge. For example taking thyroxin when you don't need to can cause hyperthyroidism, which in turn can lead to damage to the heart and even heart failure".

 

Yes, I have taken that into account, and it could be one of the reasons for reassessing it. However, I have most of the symptoms of Hypothyroidism, and I do know my pituitary (TSH) test results were very low when I was in my teens, and they rose a lot (but still "normal") - that prompted the first proper thyroid test I had.

 

I have been told that the "normal" values of blood test results change according to the amount of people who have tests - it works on some mathematical bell-curve, or something like that, not sure as maths isn't my strongest subject. I was told though that if more people present with results on the lower or higher values of the normal range, it automatically widens the range to accomodate. Normal does not necessarily mean healthy :-(

 

There are 2 professional bodies that deal with this - The British Thyroid association (whose guidelines the NHS tends to use) and Thyroid UK, who believe we should measure the tests as they do in the USA.

 

I would have been treated in the US with my results - are the US behind with their medical knowledge? Many GPs in the UK have been ostracised for following the Thyroid UK guidelines, and many only practice privately now.

 

Now, I don't know if Thyroxine is a panacea for my weight problems or not - but it shows that the NHS is missing out on a potential moneysaving scheme if it did affect obesity. Things are being found out all the time. GPs I am afraid can be very guided by drug companies first, and then by non biased research later, when mistakes have been made.

 

Use of statins is one of those things, now, and that is linked to obesity, as in heart failure etc. I was put on statins as my cholesterol was high - another cost to the NHS - only to find that even a slightly underactive thyroid makes your body produce excess cholesterol.

 

So antidepressants, muscle relaxants and statins - all costs the NHS, when one low cheap dose of Thyroxine MIGHT help, but GPs can't even do that if they wanted.

 

That cheap does of thyroxine may well make you feel better and lose weight, but it may also cause damage to your heart and lead to heart failure. Your GP;s failure to put you on Thyroxine isn't to spite you, they not doing it because they believe that they are acting in your best interests.

 

Have you sat down and discussed all your concerns with your GP, especially how you're results are on the borderline, with a view to a referral to an endocrinologist?

[glenys]

Hi JFKvsN

 

Hello :-)

 

I have talked about it, and the GP had heard nothing about the cholesterol/thyroid connection, despite it being on the NHS's own website. They weren't even aware of what the values were, only that it the tests came back "normal" Apparently if you take statins with an even a slightly under-active thyroid it can give muscle pains, the researchers are just finding out.

 

So I refused to go back on statins, as my diagnosed condition causes muscle pain (as does low thyroid interestingly enough) I didn't want to make it worse..

 

Because of my refusal take them again, they have however put me onto the Lipid Clinic.

 

Luckily the Lipid clinic is also in the endocrinology dept, just next door to where I work, so it might be the opportunity to show them the NHS articles I mentioned above, and my blood test results, IF they don't work anything out for me otherwise.

 

Thanks for the advice, it is taken on board. Anything like this is welcome :-)

 

XG