Why didn't you like Michael Gove?

[Obelix]

You're describing calculating things in your head not remembering things by rote. What's £1.43 times 7? Did you get the answer because you'd learnt it by rote or because you calculated it? We might both remember what 3 time 5 is, you because you learned it by rote, me because I calculated it so many times it stuck, but for the vast majority of everyday sums, people need to calculate them rather than rely on their memory.

 

Even if you argue that learning tables gives you a head start (I'd disagree - at the very least it's counter productive for those who have difficulty learning things by rote) it doesn't provide any long term advantage because for the majority of the time everyday maths isn't limited to the times tables.

 

143 times 7

 

seven sevens are 49, so 98 so 980

 

three sevens are 21 so 980+21 1001 - £10.01

 

I did that in my head faster then reaching for a calculator. A mix of the rote tables up to twenty twenties are four hundred and knowing how arithmetic works.

 

rote times tables are exceedingly useful.

[Guest sibon]

I agree.

 

 

 

It's okay for teachers to go on strike for a day, but not for a pupil to take a day's leave for holiday as it will disrupt his education from which he will never catch up with!

 

It is Gove who has put a stop to holidays in term time.

 

A very good example of why so very many people dislike him.

[Eater Sundae]

You don't learn that by rote, you learn to calculate it in your head.

 

Surely it's a bit of both. When I was helping to teach my daughter, she tended to build up a table by calculating it. "3 x 2 = 6, therefore 4 x 2 = "6 + another 2", = 8, so 5 x 2 is 8 + 2" etc, particularly with the higher numbers. But then, after a while, they learn the rhythm and sound so that "six nines are fifty four" etc just roll off the tongue without having to calculate it each time. They put them all together in a times table and repeating it by rote enforces the rhythm and sound and helps them to remember and repeat each one.

[altus]

Is there an issue / argument regardlng whether to teach the times tables by rote? Do some schools not do it?

 

My daughter (now 9) has learnt her tables by rote over the last few years, and can now give the answer to a multiplication and division without much thought. isn't this normal in all schools? Or do some schools not do this?

 

I read a lot about dumbing down of education, about lack of formality and how we should go back to basics. In my daughter's school, which is a bog standard state junior school, There is plenty of "basics". They learn their times tables. They learn grammar. They know it is "would have", not "would of". They understand the structure of grammar, and know the correct descriptive words (gerund, conjunction etc, which is more than I always do), not just how to say the sentence.

 

Then, beyond the building blocks of times tables and grammar, they get to use their skills in a meaningful, constructive way - trying to put a real world context to the problems they solve.

 

My schooling was many, many years ago, so it is hard to remember at what age I was taught each aspect. For me, maths was always a strong subject and it influenced by choice of career. As a result, I'm pretty clued up on mathematics. It strikes me that my daughter, and the rest of her friends as well, are much further ahead that me and my peers were at the same age. And that's ignoring their media-savvyness and understanding of the new.

 

I don't know how teachers are expected to teach, and I don't really care if there is one particular way that is flavor of the month. What's important is that children get a balanced education that enables them to get on in society and to develop and excel if they are able to. For everyone to be able to achieve to the best of their ability. When I see my daughter's work, and that of some of her friends, and how well they all seem to do, I don't have the concerns about education that a lot of people seem to have. Maybe we are lucky, but I can only go on what I see.

 

To some extent, our focussing on the basics in this thread is missing the main point of what Gove's push for learning by rote was about. He's an advocate of learning facts for GCSEs by rote, not just the basics. e.g. I'd argue that knowing of the circumstances surrounding the dissolution of the monasteries and having the research skills to look up the details was more important than remembering the dates, etc. as Gove would like.

 

---------- Post added 15-07-2014 at 14:54 ----------

 

143 times 7

 

seven sevens are 49, so 98 so 980

 

three sevens are 21 so 980+21 1001 - £10.01

 

I did that in my head faster then reaching for a calculator. A mix of the rote tables up to twenty twenties are four hundred and knowing how arithmetic works.

 

rote times tables are exceedingly useful.

 

I've not mentioned a calculator being required so I don't understand why you keep bringing them up.

 

You seem to have missed the bit about "because I calculated it so many times it stuck". By the time we are teenagers we've all done the multiplications covered by the times tables so much they we remember them anyway. Learning times tables by rote isn't necessary.

[Obelix]

To some extent, our focussing on the basics in this thread is missing the main point of what Gove's push for learning by rote was about. He's an advocate of learning facts for GCSEs by rote, not just the basics. e.g. I'd argue that knowing of the circumstances surrounding the dissolution of the monasteries and having the research skills to look up the details was more important than remembering the dates, etc. as Gove would like.

 

---------- Post added 15-07-2014 at 14:54 ----------

 

 

I've not mentioned a calculator being required so I don't understand why you keep bringing them up.

 

I never said I used one so I don't know why you keep bringing them up.

 

You seem to have missed the bit about "because I calculated it so many times it stuck". By the time we are teenagers we've all done the multiplications covered by the times tables so much they we remember them anyway.

 

Except they don't

 

Learning times tables by rote isn't necessary.

 

Except that it is. (see above)

[Mister M]

I don't know much about his impact on schools, but with regards to Further Education he did nothing to reverse the massive cuts in funding to Adult Education.

That seems crazy to me, people change their careers maybe 3 or 4 times in a lifetime nowadays, yet all the funding seems to be front loaded to the 16 - 19 year olds.

[poppet2]

all the funding seems to be front loaded to the 16 - 19 year olds.

 

Who don't always appreciate it.

 

---------- Post added 15-07-2014 at 16:05 ----------

 

Hiya Poppet.

 

Why don't you like teachers having three months of holidays?

 

Wonderful pension, wonderful holidays, so what's there to complain about?

They knew the conditions before they signed the contract.

[Guest sibon]

 

They knew the conditions before they signed the contract.

 

What if they signed a different contract?

[LeMaquis]

Wonderful pension, wonderful holidays, so what's there to complain about?

 

A teacher got murdered in Leeds a few months ago. It's not all wonderful.

[tzijlstra]

Yes, at least 1950 methods worked. Pensioners today can recite their tables.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/148418.stm

 

How often have you needed to recite a table in your later years? What kids need to learn from school is HOW TO LEARN, not how to stuff useless data in your brain. Working with (bright) students on a regular basis it is shocking how many need their hands holding when it comes to critical thinking.