Where is your God?

[Ryedo40]

If I am unaware of something I simply do not know of it's existence, belief or the lack of it doesn't come into it.

 

And because it doesn't come into it, by default you have no belief in it. You do not believe.

 

If you have no knowledge or awareness of X, you have no reason to hold a belief in X. Therefore, you do not believe in X. No conscious decision required.

 

You are talking about those who have knowledge and awareness of other people's claims & beliefs. I'm talking about those who have no knowledge and awareness of an actual god.

 

1) An atheist has no knowledge or awareness of an actual god. Therefore, he or she does not believe in X. A conscious decision is not required for that. And neither is faith.

 

2) A conscious decision is required to reject other peoples beliefs & claims. Beliefs and claims are not an actual god.

 

Your argument fails on so many levels.

[mjw47]

And because it doesn't come into it, by default you have no belief in it. You do not believe.

 

If you have no knowledge or awareness of X, you have no reason to hold a belief in X. Therefore, you do not believe in X. No conscious decision required.

 

You are talking about those who have knowledge and awareness of other people's claims & beliefs. I'm talking about those who have no knowledge and awareness of an actual god.

 

1) An atheist has no knowledge or awareness of an actual god. Therefore, he or she does not believe in X. A conscious decision is not required for that. And neither is faith.

 

2) A conscious decision is required to reject other peoples beliefs & claims. Beliefs and claims are not an actual god.

 

Your argument fails on so many levels.

 

Can you get it into your head that the words belief and believe indicate conscious thought?

 

You can do neither without thinking.

 

Not knowing about something, and giving no thought to it, cannot involve either belief or non belief, it involves being unaware, ignorant of, bringing no thought whatsoever to the subject.

 

It is not my argument that fails, it is your logic, and your misuse of the words belief/believe.

 

Incidentally, as there is no provable 'actual' God who are these people that you are talking about?

[Ryedo40]

Can you get it into your head that the words belief and believe indicate conscious thought?

 

A belief is a supposition. Atheists do not presuppose or suppose an actual god. An "actual" God simply does not exist to an atheist. Can you get that in your head?

 

Not knowing about something, and giving no thought to it, cannot involve either belief or non belief, it involves being unaware, ignorant of, bringing no thought whatsoever to the subject.

 

And if you are unaware of X, you do not have a belief concerning X.

 

There is no presupposition or supposition of X. Atheists do not presuppose or suppose an actual god. Faith is not required.

 

Incidentally, as there is no provable 'actual' God who are these people that you are talking about

 

Having knowledge of the claims concerning the existence of a god is not the same as having knowledge or awareness of an actual god. An atheist does not have knowledge or awareness of an actual god.

 

A gnostic theist claims to know there is an "actual" god - even though they are unable to substantiate its existence.

 

An agnostic theist believes on faith that an "actual" god exists - even though they are unable to substantiate its existence.

 

An atheist rejects the claims made by both gnostic and agnostic theists because of their inability to substantiate that an "actual" god exists. The atheist remains in his or her original state: no knowledge or awareness of an actual god.

[Flug]

I am made of stardust. All the scientific evidence says so if you accept the Big Bang Theory. to that end I guess that I am closer to any manifestation of God than you all dare to believe.

 

May YOUR version of God go with you all.

[mjw47]

A belief is a supposition. Atheists do not presuppose or suppose an actual god. An "actual" God simply does not exist to an atheist. Can you get that in your head?

 

 

 

And if you are unaware of X, you do not have a belief concerning X.

 

There is no presupposition or supposition of X. Atheists do not presuppose or suppose an actual god. Faith is not required.

 

 

 

Having knowledge of the claims concerning the existence of a god is not the same as having knowledge or awareness of an actual god. An atheist does not have knowledge or awareness of an actual god.

 

A gnostic theist claims to know there is an "actual" god - even though they are unable to substantiate its existence.

 

An agnostic theist believes on faith that an "actual" god exists - even though they are unable to substantiate its existence.

 

An atheist rejects the claims made by both gnostic and agnostic theists because of their inability to substantiate that an "actual" god exists. The atheist remains in his or her original state: no knowledge or awareness of an actual god.

 

Then perhaps they should come up with a new word to describe themselves as a= without, theos =God ,means that they don't believe in God(s)

 

As they have no way of proving that belief it is merely a supposition on their part.

 

An atheist is simply a believer, just the same as a theist.

 

Without proof you are reduced to believing in your opinion, but that is all it is, an opinion.

 

And as a great man once said ' Whilst everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no one is entitled to their own fact'.

 

Anyhow, as I was saying way back at post 133, this is all a bit boring.

 

These nonsensical religious debates always end up with arguments about semantics and how many beans make five.

 

As no one has any idea as to the truth of the matter, then no truth is available to learn.

 

Therefore, unless someone comes up with a blinding revelation which throws a whole new light on the subject I am out of here.

 

Please PM me if all is revealed.

[Clown Shoes]

My Physics teacher said some stuff and people believed him, does that make his class a religion?

 

How about in court, when someone says stuff that people believe it, is that court case a religion?

 

Only if people are willing to murder for his comments. Maybe if he said it 2000 years ago it'll be more mystic and thus, more believable. crazy but true.

 

But as a physics teacher he would've also be crucified for his blasphemous teaching. Ironic!

 

---------- Post added 18-08-2014 at 02:24 ----------

 

Try again, that's grossly simplistic and inaccurate.

 

I know.....it so simple that children would think its a bit like father Christmas. lovely story but its impossible for someone to visit every child in one night. Even the ones with AIDS. which god gave them. cause hes responsible for everything.

 

Unfortunately adults with guns believe it too.

[RootsBooster]

Please explain how someone can know?

 

In order to know. rather than believe, you would require positive proof.

 

If someone possessed such a thing no doubt they would be more than eager to share it with us.

I never claimed anyone could know, I asked how you could know they don't.

 

If you want me to play devil's advocate though, one way that someone could know God (a single, specific god) doesn't exist is if the first knew he did exist, if he had revealed himself to them, then made it known to them he was going to end his own existence permanently, for whatever reason.

 

Once this is complete they would know He doesn't exist.

But if you wish to believe that there is someone out there with proof go ahead.

I don't and never suggested there is.

 

---------- Post added 18-08-2014 at 09:35 ----------

 

Then perhaps they should come up with a new word to describe themselves as a= without, theos =God ,means that they don't believe in God(s)

Correct!

It doesn't mean they have a belief in the contrary though (ie, that there is no God/s)

As they have no way of proving that belief it is merely a supposition on their part.

 

An atheist is simply a believer, just the same as a theist.

I'm an atheist, I have no beliefs or suppositions about gods though, just an absence of belief.

 

---------- Post added 18-08-2014 at 09:41 ----------

 

Supposing in a years time a currently unknown Galaxy is discovered.

 

No one is going to say ' Well that's terrific, I didn't believe in it's existence'.

 

They are going to say ' Well that's terrific, I had no idea that that existed'.

 

Both statements would be correct.

[mjw47]

I never claimed anyone could know, I asked how you could know they don't.

 

If you want me to play devil's advocate though, one way that someone could know God (a single, specific god) doesn't exist is if the first knew he did exist, if he had revealed himself to them, then made it known to them he was going to end his own existence permanently, for whatever reason.

 

Once this is complete they would know He doesn't exist.

I don't and never suggested there is.

 

---------- Post added 18-08-2014 at 09:35 ----------

 

Correct!

It doesn't mean they have a belief in the contrary though (ie, that there is no God/s)

I'm an atheist, I have no beliefs or suppositions about gods though, just an absence of belief.

 

---------- Post added 18-08-2014 at 09:41 ----------

 

Both statements would be correct.

 

OK, I said I was out of here but as this is a reply to a point made yesterday I'll answer and then that's it.

 

That is a wonderful scenario that you describe there and even manages to include a version of the old chestnut directed at believers ' If God can do anything can he commit suicide?'

 

The answer to which would probably be 'Yes but that would also mean oblivion for everything'.

 

You say you are an atheist?

 

That is fair enough, you are fully entitled to that view.

 

However can you prove that your viewpoint is correct?

 

If you can't, then it means that you hold an opinion about a non provable subject.

 

That is the exact definition of a belief .

 

OED Belief = A feeling that something is true, especially without proof.

 

A firmly held opinion.

 

The fact that you describe yourself as an atheist proves that you have given the matter some thought, arrived at a decision that you believe to be the correct one, and proceeded accordingly.

 

For some reason people seem to get upset if referred to as a believer.

 

I find this strange, we are all believers in something, every one of us holds opinions on things which aren't provable, usually because our belief is subjective, as opposed to objective.

 

I believe that Sam Cooke had the best male singing voice in popular music ( check out 'A change is gonna come' ) other people disagree ( tin ears ) what does it matter?

 

Finally, whilst both statements may be understandable, the first one is confusing and therefore incorrect, it implies that the speaker had given some thought to a galaxy existing, but then reached a decision that in fact he didn't believe that it did.

 

And you'll be relieved to know this is my final post on this thread, PM me if you want to or if the meaning of life is discovered by another poster.

[RootsBooster]

You say you are an atheist?

 

That is fair enough, you are fully entitled to that view.

 

However can you prove that your viewpoint is correct?

You did it for me, here...

Then perhaps they should come up with a new word to describe themselves as a= without, theos =God ,means that they don't believe in God(s)

I am without belief in any gods.

 

If you can't, then it means that you hold an opinion about a non provable subject.

 

That is the exact definition of a belief .

 

OED Belief = A feeling that something is true, especially without proof.

 

A firmly held opinion.

 

The fact that you describe yourself as an atheist proves that you have given the matter some thought, arrived at a decision that you believe to be the correct one, and proceeded accordingly.

Of course I've given it thought, I haven't arrived at a decision though, what makes you think I must have?

I have no reason to believe, therefore have no belief.

 

By the way, the current Oxford Dictionary definition of belief is as follows:

Belief;

 

-An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof

-Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion

-A religious conviction

-Trust, faith, or confidence in

 

A belief is a conviction, something you have been convinced of or accept as the truth. I have not been convinced that any gods exist and I have not accepted that gods exist, therefore I do not have a belief. It does not mean that I have formed a belief that they don't exist.

 

For some reason people seem to get upset if referred to as a believer.

 

Yes, I remember your reaction when it was pointed out to you that the information you gave about yourself fits the bill for an atheist

 

It doesn't upset me if someone calls me a believer, it's just that they're incorrect. It's like saying an apple is a sausage.

[danot]

Natural selection happens all the time. "Requirement" implies something looking on and saying "we need to select here", while in fact it's going on always. Variation happens by chance; many variations are harmful enough not to get established as a population.

Most of the living things we see have been "selected" over millenia, and so are stable "for now"; but if the environment changes, selection for different qualities may change the balance of two forms in a population, and maybe lead to one form no longer breeding with the other -- which many would accept as a species dividing into two.

But breading isn't the issue here, it's "natural selection"!!

You state that selection would occur if/when the environment suffered severe life altering changes, but just like me, you're unable to explain why selection is triggered into action at all? You're simply acknowledging that it does occur. Doesn't it strike you as strange that nature knows when to step in to address a potential problem?