firemanbob Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 You clearly don't understand the meaning of 'proportionate'. Yes I do, it means corresponding in size or amount to something else, so a proportionate response to 3000 rockets indiscriminately fired into Israel world be 3000 rockets of equal yield indiscriminately fire into Gaza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyfriday Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 A proportionate response would be what it takes to stop the rockets. But you clearly don't understand that. ..and it isn't stopping them whilst ramping up international support for the Gazans amongst casual observers. In other words it's an epic fail as far as the Israelis are concerned, especially with pressure growing on the US to curtail it's financial support to Israel's military effort. ---------- Post added 10-08-2014 at 14:37 ---------- Yes I do, it means corresponding in size or amount to something else, so a proportionate response to 3000 rockets indiscriminately fired into Israel world be 3000 rockets of equal yield indiscriminately fire into Gaza. I was really referring to the magnitude and nature of the human losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firemanbob Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 . I was really referring to the magnitude and nature of the human losses. No you was talking about a proportional response, but if you think Israel should kill a two year old Gazan baby if Gaza kill a two year old Israeli, then you are sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph1 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Well once Hamas stops firing rockets we can discuss this......good idea? I agree a political negotiation needs to take place, unfortunately israel broke 65 un resolutions, and refuses to negotiate. iraq broke two and got invaded! Even in war there are rules to follow, the dignity of life and innocent preserved. Israel for the most part is committing a disproportionate genocide in a already APARTHED state. I don't agree with Hammas, also many Palestinians would not and do not, however 'who' else' ? And are they given a choice? It's sad to see the media and public are following the statement of 'right to defend' yet fail to acknowledge the rights of 1.8 million inhabitants in the most densely populated area on earth, 48% of whom are under 16. Israel have a iron dome able to disperse the rocket fired. Have you seen the same evidence of damage in Israel? Gaza does NOT have a defence system, rockets and rocks do not equal Apache gun ships, Military hardware ($3 billion a year US) F16 and a $226 billion iron dome. It's important to open our ability to reason and use logic to determine facts NOT given in the mainstream media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alchemist Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Here are some more palestinian children https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Z63Pxn4OQ the supporters of the hamas cowards on here will claim that its all faked ---------- Post added 10-08-2014 at 14:52 ---------- Read my lips...the Israeli response is disproportionate as the majority of Hamas missiles are hurting noone because of their iron dome. Read MY lips, what IS proportionate to deal with the hamas cowards then? That seems to be a standardly ignored question on here. I know, its halibuts strict talking to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrNorm Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Hamas have trouble understanding the meaning of 'dont start what you cant finish'. I'd agree. Their weapons are too puny and aren't inflicting any real damage or casualties in numbers. They have no chance of finishing the military battle on anything but the losing side. Israel have in effect already won the military battle, but they are losing the propaganda battle. Many think that the loss of this propaganda battle, and the criticism of Israeli actions, is explained by anti-Semitism. There may indeed be many anti-Semitic critics, but what about the growing number of critics who are not anti-Semitic? The US for example. I'm not anti-Semitic, but have criticised Israeli actions, however, after watching the film "The case for Israel: Democracy's outpost" I am slightly more sympathetic to their situation. (film available on NetFlix). In that film (made before the outbreak of current hostilities) Alan Dershowitz, Professor of Law at Harvard Law School comments: [The Israelis are] " being attacked for only one reason: Hamas knew they could take advantage of Israel's higher sense of morality. They fire their anti-personnel rockets, their murder weapons, from behind human shields. Their goal is to kill as many Israeli citizens, men, women and children as they possibly can. Their goal is also to provoke the Israeli Defence Forces because that is their cruel arithmetic of death." Hamas have succeeded in their goal in provoking that reaction. Whereas in the past Israel has maintained the high moral ground in aborting missions when innocent civilians have been near targets, they appear to have lowered their standards in the current hostilities and are far more comfortable with the civilian death toll. In the "Case for Israel" film there is grainy footage of a rocket launch from a school. The terrorist is seen to walk away from the launch site and the commentary discusses Israel's dilemma in whether they should strike the school and risk innocent lives. They decided not to strike. Now, in the current conflict, Israel accepts the provocation and justifies its response. Here's the thing though. Schools (and the like) are just launch sites. No human shield is being used. The militants walk away long before Israel has the chance to respond. No Hamas fighters get killed when Israel retaliates, no military base is destroyed. Only innocent civilians die. I think this is Israel's miscalculation and why it's losing friends. The anti-Israelis, anti-Semitics will always criticise no matter what they do. In this case Israel should listen to its friends who criticise. In the film Alan Dershowitz says "I urge you to criticise Israel when it warrants criticism, but I urge you all to look at the big picture." When friends, who have some view of the big picture, criticise Israel, Israel should listen, or they'll continue to lose the propaganda war. Some other quotes from the film, part of the bigger picture: "You don't judge a democracy by its perfection, but by how it deals with its imperfections" (a comment on the ability of any Israeli citizen, including Palestinians to petition the Supreme Court over imperfections in Israeli democratic society). "I am pro-Israel, not only because I am a Jew, but because I am a civil libertarian, because I have devoted my life to fighting for human rights, because I am a feminist, because I am an environmentalist, because I am a gay rights supporter, because I am a lover of peace. For all of those reasons, I support Israel." "Look at the countries in the world in which real abuses of human rights occur, in which nobody is trying to strike a balance. You can't complain or protest the injustices. They need your help. Israel has a completely open free press. Countries without a free press need your help. Start protesting those countries. If you don't, you're a hypocrite." "It takes courage to make peace." Indeed, everyone involved needs a little more courage to make peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alchemist Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Perhaps because they're wiping out civilian targets rather than military ones..just a thought. Well if the military ones wernt hiding in womens skirts and using children as human shields your point may be valid. But whilst isreal are dealing with cowards who dont care about civilian casualties they have to use what tactics they can ---------- Post added 10-08-2014 at 14:59 ---------- If Israel can shoot down most of the missiles fired at them it does seem like total idiocy on the part of Hamas to resume firing them when they had a cease fire in which their own population was not under attack. I suspect that the cowards of hamas continue to lob rockets at isreal to cover up the odd one or two that "accidently" drop in gaza to produce some civilian casualties to blame on isreal ---------- Post added 10-08-2014 at 15:01 ---------- This link says "rockets fired from gaza as ceasefire ends"= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/08/gaza-enters-tense-phase-as-ceasefire-expires-with-no-deal-on-extension Israel is an ocupying force and the Palestinians are resisting as they are entitled to do. So are you saying that the beeb are lying? If so, please feel free to get in touch with them and tell them how YOU know that they are lying. Im sure that they will be impressed by the depth of your knowledge ---------- Post added 10-08-2014 at 15:04 ---------- It doesn't say ceasefire broken by Hamas does it? Maybe not, but the BBC one that YOU originally used did say so. Im glad that you found the only one that barely supports your point of view ---------- Post added 10-08-2014 at 15:10 ---------- You clearly don't understand the meaning of 'proportionate'. you clearly cant define it ---------- Post added 10-08-2014 at 15:12 ---------- Here's one. Gaza stops firing rockets. Now what? Isreal stops bombing them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firemanbob Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I'd agree. Their weapons are too puny and aren't inflicting any real damage or casualties in numbers. They have no chance of finishing the military battle on anything but the losing side. Actuality they are, only 75% of the rockets make it into Israel and of those the majority are destroyed by the Iron Dome, some land but more often than not in areas that are not heavily populated, if one does fall on populated area the civilians are likley to be in shelters. That leaves 25% that are falling on Gaza a very densely populated area with no shelters, no Iron dome and no sirens, when it falls it is very likley to kill civilians, obviously they are included in the numbers that Hamas claim Israel killed, but anyone with any sense must know that some of the Gazan casualties must be from these rockets, and Hamas have fired thousands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alchemist Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28688179 Mayfa - more bbc lies for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mort Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Closed for review Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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