Ebola - God cured me!

[SnailyBoy]

Utterly false. He allied with the Catholic Church in Rome and protestant churches in the north of Germany. I wouldn't argue that Hitler was a Christian, he was far too invested in his pagan aryan-blood myth, but you've over stretched the point a little.

 

If Hitler felt Christian he was Christian. Who's to say he wasn't without falling into the No True Scotsman fallacy.

[harvey19]

[quote=redwhine;11037122

 

Atheism is a lack of belief in god/God/gods. That is it and that is all.

 

Here we go again for another several pages probably !

[Chris_Sleeps]

If Hitler felt Christian he was Christian. Who's to say he wasn't ...

I shall expand, because I wouldn't argue that he wasn't a Christian either. Hitler's religious views are obscure, contradictory, and more than that - endlessly tied to his politics. Was it true religious belief or pragmatic political posture? Who knows.

 

His acts speak for themselves however. He only persecuted Christians when they stood against his political aims, or had other traits that he condemned them such as being slavic. He never persecuted the Church per se, just de-politicised it, and he also used religion to unite people to the Nazi party.

 

I went to Dachau recently and saw the Priest Barracks. Hitler's anti-clericalism is mixed with the odd history of the Vatican's support for his work, and even more - their assistance to help Nazis escape after the war.

 

A truly complex history, the role of the Catholic Church in WW2.

[SnailyBoy]

I shall expand, because I wouldn't argue that he wasn't a Christian either. Hitler's religious views are obscure, contradictory, and more than that - endlessly tied to his politics. Was it true religious belief or pragmatic political posture? Who knows.

 

His acts speak for themselves however. He only persecuted Christians when they stood against his political aims, or had other traits that he condemned them such as being slavic. He never persecuted the Church per se, just de-politicised it, and he also used religion to unite people to the Nazi party.

 

I went to Dachau recently and saw the Priest Barracks. Hitler's anti-clericalism is mixed with the odd history of the Vatican's support for his work, and even more - their assistance to help Nazis escape after the war.

 

A truly complex history, the role of the Catholic Church in WW2.

 

I agree.. ,it certainly isn't a simple as applying a label. I need to do some further research.

 

Do you have any recommendations?

[Chris_Sleeps]

There's a very interesting book called Hitler's Pope, but do bare in mind that the author changed some of his views later on. It's open to criticism but it does give an outline of the case.

 

It's difficult history also because the Vatican still guards it's own paperwork on the subject closely. Time will tell.

 

---

 

It is also worthy to note that fascism existed in Italy before Germany, and didn't have the same brutality or virulent anti-semitism. While Catholic Italians may not have been enamoured by the Jews, it certainly never crossed their minds to put them into camps.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Chris_Sleeps

[SnailyBoy]

There's a very interesting book called Hitler's Pope, but do bare in mind that the author changed some of his views later on. It's open to criticism but it does give an outline of the case.

 

It's difficult history also because the Vatican still guards it's own paperwork on the subject closely. Time will tell.

 

Yeah, not the most open and honest organisation are they?

[redwhine]

I agree.. ,it certainly isn't a simple as applying a label. I need to do some further research.

 

Do you have any recommendations?

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

 

---------- Post added 04-06-2015 at 12:06 ----------

 

It is also worthy to note that fascism existed in Italy before Germany, and didn't have the same brutality or virulent anti-semitism. While Catholic Italians may not have been enamoured by the Jews, it certainly never crossed their minds to put them into camps.

 

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/mussolini_roman_catholic.htm

[Ryedo40]

I shall expand, because I wouldn't argue that he wasn't a Christian either. Hitler's religious views are obscure, contradictory, and more than that - endlessly tied to his politics. Was it true religious belief or pragmatic political posture? Who knows.

 

Probably both. What is Christian? Ask Christians around the world and you'll get different answers. Their values vastly differ - from the benign and tolerant to the oppressive, intolerant, controlling and bigoted. And most seem to justify their varied views - progressive, liberal or conservative - Biblically/theologically. But all, no matter how different, view themselves as Christian. Not all agree with the many religious institutions representing Christianity too. And for a lot of Christians, the institutionalised Church isn't the true Church at all. The true Church is the people who are "called to God"(Hitler also wanted the volk(people) to be the Church).

 

Hitler's religious views were not at all obscure. He often stated he was a Catholic and Christian, and made clear his beliefs and intentions. His art was usually religiously themed - even painting Mary with a white, blonde haired blue-eyed Jesus - and, even in his private conversations, was adamant that Jesus must have been Aryan.

 

“Christ was an Aryan. But Paul used his teachings to mobilize the underworld and organize a proto-bolshevism. With its breakdown, the beautiful clarity of the ancient world was lost.” - Table-Talk

 

"Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church." - Hitler, 1936

 

To get a grasp of Hitler and the Nazi regime, you have to take into account the climate decades before. Not only was there mass paranoia across Europe where Christians believed the Bolshevists were plotting to cause the collapse Christian civilisation, but there was all the misery and poverty caused because of WW1. Christians were looking for a scape-goat, someone to blame for all the problems occurring in society. Their fingers pointed towards their traditional scape-goat, the Jew. Hitler lived in and was influenced by that environment.

 

Hitler blamed Jews and liberal/progressive Christians for corrupting Christianity, thereby corrupting its civilisation and values. He saw it all as part of the Bolshevist plot.

 

As I pointed out above, Christianity isn't a uniform religion and Hitler identified that as one of its weaknesses. This is partly why he wanted a uniform Christianity: one that was firm in it convictions, especially against the Jew, and one that could withstand scrutiny, criticism and other philosophies in the modern world.

 

His views on racial-mixing and blood sin didn't originate from any pagan belief(he was quite anti the pagan movement in Germany). Racial-mixing and blood sin, especially back then, had long been concerns held by Christians and Hitler was no different. But most of his views concerning race, and the "degeneration" caused by racial mixing, as well as the Aryan Jesus, are traced back to the Catholic Arthur de Gobineau and Houston Stewart Chamberlain - also a Christian and friend of Hitler.

 

He was consistent throughout expressing his beliefs in God. Most of his associates, including those who influenced him, were also Christian. It doesn't ring true to say Hitler wasn't a Christian himself.

 

At most I'd say he wasn't your typical mainstream Christian that we'd recognise - although, today, he'd probably find himself at home in some areas of the US.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Ryedo40

[kingdom]

Do you have to believe that your god can't prevent bad things happening or just doesn't care?

 

 

God foretold that bad things would happen :

 

Revelation 11:18:

 

"But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to BRING TO RUIN THOSE RUINING THE EARTH "

 

notice man would be ruining the earth ,if God stopped man doing this before it happened how could this scripture be fullfilled ?

 

here we are and man is ruining the earth destroying the enviroment ,corrupting it through and through , nobody lives in peace and the earth is a place of turmoil.

 

But notice the scripture mentions an appointed time , time for what ?

[perplexed]

God foretold that bad things would happen :

 

Revelation 11:18:

 

"But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to BRING TO RUIN THOSE RUINING THE EARTH "

 

notice man would be ruining the earth ,if God stopped man doing this before it happened how could this scripture be fullfilled ?

 

here we are and man is ruining the earth destroying the enviroment ,corrupting it through and through , nobody lives in peace and the earth is a place of turmoil.

 

But notice the scripture mentions an appointed time , time for what ?

 

God foretold that bad things would happen? That's a bit of a convenient catch-all. Also, somewhat conveniently (as the above all came from the hand of ordinary, mortal men), they're a bit vague on timings aren't they?