Fed up with European directives?

[tzijlstra]

Look, you just don't understand it, do you?

 

The main cultural and social difference between the Dutch and the British is that:

 

You have forgiven the Germans for World War 2.

 

We, on the other hand, have not.

 

And we're unlikely to do so for at least another generation yet

 

You might not have but most of the rest of us have.

 

I read it as firmly tongue in cheek Andy

[JFKvsNixon]

I read it as firmly tongue in cheek Andy

 

As did I, but there is also an element of the truth in the comment. Many see every political move that originates from Germany as part of some master plan to take over Europe.

[PeteMorris]

Not by me you didn't

 

Though you later posts did get to me a bit: I don't ever expect posters to take my word for it, but then what I do expect when posters disagree with my posts, is that such posters who don't know much at all about the topic (and openly say so, FGS!) research it at least a bit for justifying their contrary opinion, instead of just burying their head in the sand with their fingers in their hears and wallow in prejudice. Otherwise, I might as well debate the topic with a brick wall.

I'm quite certain of it. Though I'd like to think that I debate, rather than "savage"...the same as e.g. tzijlstra and many others, AFAICR we haven't ever insulted genuine posters.

 

I'm really 'not' burying my head in the sand Loob. I'm genuinely of the opinion that despite all the economic arguments that 'my' electricity costs are never going to reduce as a direct result of the EU reducing the wattage of vacuums...toasters or anything else.

 

I hear loud and clear the arguments put forward, and yes on the face of it I can see the economic arguments and the fact that if people use less electricity then the electricity production and maintenance cost reduce .....etc...etc...etc....But, do you really think it will result in cheaper electricity?....Do you in your wildest dreams think that the likes of Eon or any other company will merely sit back and take it on the chin and settle for less profits (by selling electricity cheaper) for their shareholders (bearing in mind the fuel to make electricity is an ever dwindling resource). It's never going to get cheaper..Not ever!!!

[tzijlstra]

WOW...that was a hell of a post! But it makes me understand why you are so Pro-European...You worked there!

 

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, it just makes me understand where you're coming from, and also explains your avatar

 

I didn't work there, I worked for a central library that provided an EU Information Point, I also worked in a research project that was funded by the EU, with other Europeans. It helps to have an open mind

 

I can see that you think the whole EU thing is incredibly transparent, but who the heck would want to trawl through all of it? I certainly don't, and I don't suppose many other people would. You say you 'follow' your MEP...That's fine if that's what you choose to do. I don't have a problem with that either.

 

Let's be clear here, the transparency is a good thing, we agree on that. I also agree that it is difficult to trawl through it all. Especially in the UK. The reason for this is the extremely sceptical stance of the British media. I have just returned from Latvia, understandably a very pro-EU country. Their news covers all EU policies, it is in the local papers, all government buildings adorn both the Latvian and EU flag. They indicate which projects have been funded by the EU and so on, and so on. All things that are missing here, making it very hard for people to understand what the real influence of the EU is.

 

The flag is in response to a debate on this forum some years ago and simultaneously in response to the upcoming turmoil of an EU-referendum, should it happen.

 

I've been berated by others for my lack of knowledge and understanding of how it all works, and that's fine. Someone even said educate yourself in how it works. By extension, that means effectively that you have to have a full in depth knowledge of every single nuance and fact about everything before you venture an opinion on this forum. That's clearly not going to happen.....is it?

 

No, and to be fair, it isn't expected of you. I am sure you don't know the exact ins and outs of the UK government and how that works. The issue that arises when people with bad information create a hostile opinion of the EU is bad though, if a person does not know what they are talking about, they should inform themselves before doing so, I am sure you agree on that.

 

Why on earth would I keep tabs on what's happening in the EU decision making process, when effectively there's nothing I can do about it anyway...(Yeah I can hear the keyboard warriors already saying yes you can...vote your local MEP out.....At the end of their term there?) Also, with you telling me that a lot of back room bargaining goes on....You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours....That sounds an awful lot like it's wide open to corruption..Yeah...Sorry, it's the cynic in me creeping to the fore again.

 

It works exactly the same way in Westminster. When Cameron has to push through an unpopular law with his backbenchers he will have to bargain like mad to ensure it happens. What is the role of a Whip? The transparency of the EU prevents corruption, but I am not going to sit here and say there is no corruption, just as I will never say there is no corruption in the UK or the Netherlands. We all know there is.

 

It doesn't inspire me to agree with the EU, or have faith in decisions which like it or not, good or bad get foisted onto the unsuspecting majority of the populous, once they've already been agreed.

 

Again, that is exactly how the UK works, the key difference is that the EU seems further away, but in the end there are far more similarities than differences. This returns to the first point I made: If the press wasn't so easily malleable to blame the EU for everything than perhaps people would have a better idea of what the EU does for us. Look at the directive that started this post. It is part of a framework and agreement that has existed for years and years, but now the practical implication follows it is deemed as the EU interfering. If the press had properly reported on what the implications would be when the framework was being worked on, we wouldn't have this naive view dominating.

 

---------- Post added 02-09-2014 at 11:14 ----------

 

As did I, but there is also an element of the truth in the comment. Many see every political move that originates from Germany as part of some master plan to take over Europe.

 

Yes, and what a sad state of affairs that is. I grew up distrusting Germans though, and trust me, anti-German sentiments in the Netherlands are far stronger than they are here. Once I grew up I learned that not everything is simple though.

 

I'm really 'not' burying my head in the sand Loob. I'm genuinely of the opinion that despite all the economic arguments that 'my' electricity costs are never going to reduce as a direct result of the EU reducing the wattage of vacuums...toasters or anything else.

 

I hear loud and clear the arguments put forward, and yes on the face of it I can see the economic arguments and the fact that if people use less electricity then the electricity production and maintenance cost reduce .....etc...etc...etc....But, do you really think it will result in cheaper electricity?....Do you in your wildest dreams think that the likes of Eon or any other company will merely sit back and take it on the chin and settle for less profits (by selling electricity cheaper) for their shareholders (bearing in mind the fuel to make electricity is an ever dwindling resource). It's never going to get cheaper..Not ever!!!

 

Didn't I already explain that this is nothing to do with making electricity cheaper?

[L00b]

<...>But, do you really think it will result in cheaper electricity?<...>

No, and I said that ages ago in post #51.

 

Lowering the cost of electricity to you has nothing to do with the EU, nor with this Directive. It's what you think should happen (from the above post), but it's not the case at all, because it's not the EU's job to do that (until and unless it needs to bend Eon's, EDF's etc. ears about monopolistic practices in breach of Articles 101/102 TFEU), nor is it what this Directive is for/about.

 

Hope this clarifies thing a bit

<...>

Yes, and what a sad state of affairs that is. I grew up distrusting Germans though, and trust me, anti-German sentiments in the Netherlands are far stronger than they are here.<...>

(Generations of-) our family dogs have eaten off swastika-emblazoned, 1941-dated Bavarian porcelain for the last 69 years

[Mecky]

No, not fed up, is the same for other member states too

[PeteMorris]

I didn't work there, I worked for a central library that provided an EU Information Point, I also worked in a research project that was funded by the EU, with other Europeans. It helps to have an open mind

 

My apologies. Lets just say that you had sort of loose connections with it, which is obviously why you have a deeper understanding of the way it works that most

 

 

Let's be clear here, the transparency is a good thing, we agree on that. I also agree that it is difficult to trawl through it all. Especially in the UK. The reason for this is the extremely sceptical stance of the British media. I have just returned from Latvia, understandably a very pro-EU country. Their news covers all EU policies, it is in the local papers, all government buildings adorn both the Latvian and EU flag. They indicate which projects have been funded by the EU and so on, and so on. All things that are missing here, making it very hard for people to understand what the real influence of the EU is.

 

Well...I see what you're saying of course, and you're right. It is a lack of understanding and perhaps an element of misinformation on the part of the press. Along with a little strip of water called the English Channel

 

I think a heck of a lot of Britons don't actually feel European (and never have done), and consequently really can't get excited or enthused about the inner working of Brussels. Lets face it, they probably don't care what goes on in Wesminster either!

 

The flag is in response to a debate on this forum some years ago and simultaneously in response to the upcoming turmoil of an EU-referendum, should it happen.

 

I see...personally I'm not really very keen on the (as I perceive it) stick and carrot approach that Cameron is using in regard to any impending referendum about Europe. But that's just me!

 

No, and to be fair, it isn't expected of you. I am sure you don't know the exact ins and outs of the UK government and how that works. The issue that arises when people with bad information create a hostile opinion of the EU is bad though, if a person does not know what they are talking about, they should inform themselves before doing so, I am sure you agree on that.

 

Well...Ummm....I sort of agree...But that's probably why this forum has 180 odd thousand members, and probably about only a few hundred that actually post, and a good percentage of those only post to wind people up (troll). In my opinion I don't see why I would have to thoroughly research a subject before posting on here. Trust me....a hell of a lot of people do not post because they get savaged. I do know that for a fact, it's not just supposition.

 

 

It works exactly the same way in Westminster. When Cameron has to push through an unpopular law with his backbenchers he will have to bargain like mad to ensure it happens. What is the role of a Whip? The transparency of the EU prevents corruption, but I am not going to sit here and say there is no corruption, just as I will never say there is no corruption in the UK or the Netherlands. We all know there is.

 

I'm sure it does work the same in Westminster, the difference being there's more reporting of it here. I do understand the role of party 'whips'. If the evening news had a daily spot which looked at what happened in the EU parliament every day, people would just switch off (in their minds) because they don't care and it's not interesting. I'm afraid it's a British mindset. There's not much can be done about it either.

 

Again, that is exactly how the UK works, the key difference is that the EU seems further away, but in the end there are far more similarities than differences. This returns to the first point I made: If the press wasn't so easily malleable to blame the EU for everything than perhaps people would have a better idea of what the EU does for us. Look at the directive that started this post. It is part of a framework and agreement that has existed for years and years, but now the practical implication follows it is deemed as the EU interfering. If the press had properly reported on what the implications would be when the framework was being worked on, we wouldn't have this naive view dominating.

 

The press isn't interested in reporting the implications of a directive, they're there to sell newspapers....and unfortunately, a good percentage of those are red tops. You're wishing for a complete cultural shift and a sudden complete understanding of the EU and how it works, but the average bloke in the street probably couldn't tell you what the letters EU stand for. In a word apathy. (please don't include me in that )

 

 

Didn't I already explain that this is nothing to do with making electricity cheaper?

 

I wasn't the one who posted anything to do with cheaper electricity, it just kinda went in that direction, as these threads tend to.

 

By the way...that was a great post from you.

[JFKvsNixon]

It works exactly the same way in Westminster. When Cameron has to push through an unpopular law with his backbenchers he will have to bargain like mad to ensure it happens. What is the role of a Whip? The transparency of the EU prevents corruption, but I am not going to sit here and say there is no corruption, just as I will never say there is no corruption in the UK or the Netherlands. We all know there is.

 

I don't think that political compromise is as common in a "first past the post" political systems as opposed to "proportional representation" Look at the stick that Nick Clegg got, by people who just did not understand coalition government.

 

Maybe this is part of the problem between us and the EU, as it is a way of doing politics that many do not understand, so many will be hostile to it.

[Guest]

Britains involvement in the EU should be entirely trade based. Nothing more.

[dosxuk]

In my opinion I don't see why I would have to thoroughly research a subject before posting on here. Trust me....a hell of a lot of people do not post because they get savaged. I do know that for a fact, it's not just supposition.

 

Nobody needs to thoroughly research a subject before posting, but a basic understanding wouldn't go amiss. There's many posters on here who are proud of the fact they don't know anything about certain subjects, the EU seems to be a particular favourite, yet that doesn't stop them ranting on about things which are incorrect, misleading or just plain wrong.

 

Would the forum be a better place if these idiots weren't corrected? Or would it just become a home of self-satisfied, yes-men, who all believe each others rhetoric because they're never asked to justify their statements?

 

You see the same thing all the time with topics about health & safety. Person posts "HSE has banned conkers" - at which point it becomes obvious they know nothing about H&S, the HSE or the way they work. Should anyone who knows different keep quiet, in case that OP feels they're being "savaged" because they're being told what they're writing is complete nonsense?

 

Statistically, 50% of the posters on this forum have less than average intelligence. It's little wonder so many lies, untruths and misconceptions are posted.