Biker death - hard hitting story and video

[Eater Sundae]

I watched this video, and my initial impression was the biker being mainly at fault because of his speed. I think first impression can be deceptive though.

 

I think someone said earlier that the driver admitting to not looking, which isn't correct according to the report. It says that the driver didn't see him (or the car behind).

 

There's a huge difference between not looking, and looking but not seeing.

 

As for not seeing the car behind, it's difficult to see where that car would have been. Probably quite a way back from him. At least 200 yards.

 

You can see the driver's view point here, and at the point where the car turns, the biker is at the top of the red middle section of the road (near the white sign). From this angle it looks much like driver error, and that's probably why they were charged (especially as there is quite a long run up in the right-turn lane, if you scroll back).

 

However, from another angle, this looks like quite a technical junction* for a fast A-road. It reminds me a bit of the A1, there are numerous junctions like this on it. I'm not a big fan of driving on these, mainly because it can be really tiring. People pull out all the time.

 

*by technical, I mean lots of different things that can happen, it's a cross junction type thing rather than a crossroads, and I bet it sees a lot of near misses (hence all the red paint, the slow signs etc.)

 

If this biker knew this bit of road, I think he made a serious error, even reckless.

If this biker didn't know this road, then it's reckless driving at this speed on an unknown road.

 

 

There IS a slow sign on the road too, which he paid no attention to, and continued speeding into this junction all the while. However, riding for 22 years, this man most likely new how to handle his machine. You couldn't ride for 22 years like this and be alive, unless very very lucky.

 

I think my conclusion, though I will carry on reading, is that obviously the driver has made an error, or mistake; and the biker here (at this time) was reckless riding. The outcome of course, is this. A terrible accident where the driver will no doubt hear that thud and remember that moment for ever, and of course David's family and friends have lost someone too, and especially close family/friends/partner will probably never be right again.

 

For this, I can see the reason for showing it.

 

I think it WILL make bikers think a bit more, especially at awkward junctions like this. And I think drivers at awkward junctions (obviously we don't know if they knew these roads or new to it) will see this and take another look in future.

 

-

 

Two things that also stood out for me:

 

1. How even with video footage, still no one can agree really (but either way, there are no winners, so that's perhaps moot).

 

2. Had this been a car doing 97, and a bike turned across in the same manner and the biker died, would people's opinions [blame] of the accident change? I think the car at 97 would have been considered totally at fault. (or imagine it was a bus or taxi doing it). It's something to think about.

 

---------- Post added 06-09-2014 at 01:54 ----------

 

I've thought of another thing worth considering. People have been discussing this over 4 pages, and a day or so. Hindsight is wonderful with things like this.

 

Remember, all this happened in about 2 or 3 seconds.

 

Re point 2. I'm reminded of a case where a professional footballer (I cannot remember his name) was speeding in a built up area and hit a car that pulled out at a junction. He was deemed to be at fault, due to his speed, even though the other car had pulled out into his path.

[cgksheff]

Thats going to bug the crap out me now. I know the incident you mean but the name escapes me!

 

Can't have that. Can we?

 

 

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-21616296

[Eater Sundae]

Thats going to bug the crap out me now. I know the incident you mean but the name escapes me!

 

I thought he played for Birmingham, and a search brought up Marlon King, so it may be him, but I'm still not sure it's the same case.

 

Edit. Ah, cgksheff has got it. Thanks

[I1L2T3]

If the biker had been doing a legal 60, he'd probably still have hit the car. Not wanting to stick blame on what is an important message but the car driver was entirely wrong in making that turn. The car drive caused the accident, the bikers speed was what caused his death I feel.

 

I totally agree. The driver caused the collision but the biker was in the wrong too. I saw the video as a plea to both drivers and bikers. Drivers to be more careful. Bikers to slow down. That poor mum, you could tell she had worried all the time about her son being on motorbikes. And it would have been awful for the driver as well - people should ask themselves do they really want to be responsible for an accident like that. Always check and check again at junctions.

[buck]

I had 40 accident free years as a biker.

Best advice I ever had and the one I always took notice of was:

"Always assume that they are all out to kill you."

Defensive riding will always work.

I too rode for many years with the sure knowledge that the bike would kill me if it can. Any aviator of sense will tell you the same thing, that beautiful aircraft is bent on destroying itself just as long as it takes you and any passnger in it with it.

[skat man]

Click 1

Click 2

 

I could go all day but wont.

[DT Ralge]

Interesting how much interest this story/video has raised.

Is that because we have all been allowed to witness the crash as a result of the biker's headcam? After all, these fatals happen 5 times every day.

 

Whilst we are "on" it can we learn from it? On two scales (1 to 5) of responsibility and avoidability does either driver/rider score anything like a 1 or 2 (I.e. Was not really responsible and could not have done a great deal to avoid getting involved)?

Will this case history change how we interact with other road users and deal with emerging, turning on any road, what speed we use on approaching a junction?

How does this crash illuminate the discussion that is entertained here on more than a few occasions on doing away with speed norms/limits and letting drivers/riders use their commonsense and drive/ride "to the conditions" as opposed to what are seen as arbitrary numbers on posts?

[barleycorn]

Click 1

Click 2

 

I could go all day but wont.

What point are you trying, badly, to make?

 

jb

[Waldo]

Will this case history change how we interact with other road users and deal with emerging, turning on any road, what speed we use on approaching a junction?

 

We can all see the completely devastation (and pain for those left behind) that speed and carelessness has caused. I think in general, it will make people more cautious and considerate (I would hope).

 

I think it's also very commendably with the mother has done, in allowing the footage to be used for this purpose.

 

How does this crash illuminate the discussion that is entertained here on more than a few occasions on doing away with speed norms/limits and letting drivers/riders use their commonsense and drive/ride "to the conditions" as opposed to what are seen as arbitrary numbers on posts?

 

Maybe if the biker was driving (riding) to conditions and common sense; he would have actually been doing UNDER the speed limit?

 

In general though, I don't know. I think there's a think of the more rules and sign-posts we have; the less we have to pay attention and work things out for ourselves. I remember an experiment they did on one stretch of road where the removed the center-line; and found that the actual number of collisions went down as a result (compared to when there was a line down the middle of the road). Of course, I'm not suggesting that getting rid of all white lines down the middle of the road (or removing speed limits) would be a good think.

 

One thing I did think about the situation of this particular collision, was perhaps the junction could have been designed in a safer way?

[DT Ralge]

We can all see the completely devastation (and pain for those left behind) that speed and carelessness has caused. I think in general, it will make people more cautious and considerate (I would hope).

 

I think it's also very commendably with the mother has done, in allowing the footage to be used for this purpose.

 

 

 

Maybe if the biker was driving (riding) to conditions and common sense; he would have actually been doing UNDER the speed limit?

 

In general though, I don't know. I think there's a think of the more rules and sign-posts we have; the less we have to pay attention and work things out for ourselves. I remember an experiment they did on one stretch of road where the removed the center-line; and found that the actual number of collisions went down as a result (compared to when there was a line down the middle of the road). Of course, I'm not suggesting that getting rid of all white lines down the middle of the road (or removing speed limits) would be a good think.

 

One thing I did think about the situation of this particular collision, was perhaps the junction could have been designed in a safer way?

 

From my personal knowledge of the junction I'm not sure the junction could have more width, more space for right-turning refuge, better vision and visibility.