Vouchers instead of change on Sheffield busses

[Zamo]

Sorry to burst your bubble zamo but West Yorkshire are not doing QC's and according my colleague over there that works for WYCA they do not have the agreement in place for the voluntary agreement in place yet

 

If your colleague is correct then he/she should have a word with the PTE (Metro) because it is not what it says on their website:

 

"After consultations and with support from passengers, Metro has developed proposals for a Bus Quality Bus Contract scheme similar to the way in which buses are run in London and most European cities.

 

A Quality Bus Contract Scheme would mean that Metro would be responsible for deciding where buses run, how often they run, what fares and tickets are available, what quality standards buses run to and what happens if things go wrong. Made by local councillors, these decisions would be based on local needs and priorities and affordability.

 

Bus operators would then have to bid to run bus services on Metro's behalf.

 

Metro is aware that moving to a London-style public transport system carries some significant risks. Under a Quality Bus Contract, Metro would be responsible for taking on the risks associated with running local bus services. If for instance, fuel prices increased dramatically, this extra cost would have to be funded either through more public subsidy, fares would have to go up, or services changed. Metro would ensure that where difficult decisions have to be made, those decisions are made on the basis of local issues and opinions and that the decision-makers would also be accountable to voters."

 

Even if West Yorkshire has changed its mind, it doesn't change the fact that the powers to impose Quality Contracts exist.

[sheffbag]

My colleague is indeed correct. If you look at your link then you will see that

1. It refers to a meeting from December 2013

2. It says that they are/were looking at both a QC and a VBA, not just a QC

3. It mentions the Nexus discussions which I am assuming you are calling the local area in your post

 

Whilst that may be the information on the website that you have found please consider the age of your information.

 

Current position in West Yorkshire is that QC's were rejected by the operators (First and Arriva) which effectively killed them. There isn't an operator big enough in WY to operate QCs if they don't (Stagecoach could but they are opposed to them too). The operators have sought a voluntary agreement which (9 months following the meeting you refer to) is still not in place and doesn't look to be anytime soon.

 

In Nexus both the council and the operators rejected the proposal for a QC operation. This made Nexus backtrack and draw up a voluntary agreement which is modelled on the SY version. This has not been accepted yet.

 

Yes you are correct in that PTEs could impose quality contracts, but the reality is that they cannot because without the operators to cover the service then it wouldn't happen. Other operators would not be able to carry the fleet requirements to do so outside of First, Stagecoach and Arriva. They know that and so do the PTE/TCAs which is the reason they haven't been pushed through. It requires a voluntary agreement in order to get cohesion.

 

I have provided evidence for all my points, yes the WY website has that page up because there has been no movement since. Until there is what would you have them do?

 

As I said I may not agree with the PTEs on a lot of things but due to the financial and operational risk associated with QCs coupled with the funding available for bus agreements (the BBAF fund is not available to QC agreements) then it is better to have this model and that has been recognised by the industry.

 

Does it have the powers to? Yes

Is it the best for the PTEs, the operators and ultimately the passenger? No

Will they come into force? No

[woodmally]

Didnt someone say they got a voucher for 10p earlier in the thread?

 

I don't know but given how petty our bus drivers can be I would not be surprised. Like I said earlier if it was £10.0 fine but they are now even being petty about £5.00 and £2.00 denominations.

[No User Name]

Post #20

 

i issued one today for 10p:)

 

I assume he isnt being serious though.

[999tigger]

I don't know but given how petty our bus drivers can be I would not be surprised. Like I said earlier if it was £10.0 fine but they are now even being petty about £5.00 and £2.00 denominations.

 

How often do you catch the bus?

How often have you been given change as a % when you havent had the correct money?

How many vouchers have you been issued with?

Edited September 24, 2014 by 999tigger

[No User Name]

How often do you cathc the bus?

How often have you been given change as a % when you havent had the correct money?

How many vouchers have you been issued with?

 

See the post just above, you think being issued with a voucher for the sake of 10p is acceptable?

[woodmally]

How often do you cathc the bus?

How often have you been given change as a % when you havent had the correct money?

How many vouchers have you been issued with?

 

How often I catch the bus well quite often. I dont drive so have to catch public transport

 

Firstly how often I have been given change probably 50% but only because my fare from town is £1.00 though many people its probably more.

 

I have not recieved any vouchers personally however looking at the comments on this forum the buses are now using this method rather than issuing change. Which they wernt before and as most things bus drivers are doing sounds like they are being petty about it (when even a customer presents them with £2.00 coin)

[Zamo]

Sheffbag - We'll have to agree to differ on whether Quality Contracts are right or not but I personally think the success of London clearly indicates best practice.

 

What I am sure we can agree on is that the preferred strategy for West Yorkshire was (as of December 2013) to develop a Quality Contract scheme and the alternative bus partnership was the fallback position. It would not surprise me if your inside information is true (it is the sort of capitulation I am used to seeing in the public sector) but the fact is they have yet to find the courage to announce their lack of courage and the u-turn!

 

In my opinion it is embarrassing to capitulate to operator pressure and the PTE/WYCA should have the backbone to call their bluff. The fact is that there are a number of large foreign owner bus operators looking to gain market share and I do not believe that the likes of Stagecoach and First would be dumb enough to refuse to bid for franchise operations and let rivals in to challenge their dominance. Pathetically weak, risk adverse, leadership and it is a common problem... see recent revelations in Rotherham as an example of it happening in other service areas.

[Lotusflower]

Sheffbag - We'll have to agree to differ on whether Quality Contracts are right or not but I personally think the success of London clearly indicates best practice.

 

What I am sure we can agree on is that the preferred strategy for West Yorkshire was (as of December 2013) to develop a Quality Contract scheme and the alternative bus partnership was the fallback position. It would not surprise me if your inside information is true (it is the sort of capitulation I am used to seeing in the public sector) but the fact is they have yet to find the courage to announce their lack of courage and the u-turn!

 

In my opinion it is embarrassing to capitulate to operator pressure and the PTE/WYCA should have the backbone to call their bluff. The fact is that there are a number of large foreign owner bus operators looking to gain market share and I do not believe that the likes of Stagecoach and First would be dumb enough to refuse to bid for franchise operations and let rivals in to challenge their dominance. Pathetically weak, risk adverse, leadership and it is a common problem... see recent revelations in Rotherham as an example of it happening in other service areas.

 

Re my bold above.

Believe what you want Zamo but that is exactly what has happened in West Yorkshire and here in South Yorkshire.

You posted a link without reading it...well at least without understanding it...as has been pointed out to you by myself and Sheffbag.

I think your whole difficulty springs from your tendency to draw conclusions from insufficient premises and play the oracle before ridding yourself of that most stupefying of all anaesthetics...ignorance!

[ShefStealth]

Sheffbag - We'll have to agree to differ on whether Quality Contracts are right or not but I personally think the success of London clearly indicates best practice.

 

What are you on about? The 1985 transport act deregulated bus services outside of London, but in London the buses stayed regulated. TFL (Transport for London) was then formed in 2000 out of the 'Greater London Authority act 1999' that allowed a unified strategy for all their tranport infrastructure. There is no need for TFL to enter into quality contracts with other operators down there, as TFL is still a recognised government body (the clue to that is in their website adress at tfl.gov.uk) and in turn, they hold a lot more power and have more options than a PTE would and this has never been contested by the operators. TFL have no competition, operators that wish to run a service down there adheer to TFLs regulations else they do not get a licence to operate there, end of. Hence TFL can command a unified pricing structure irrespective of operator, which is another reason why their public transport works so well. Westminster has always legistlated so that London reaps the benefits, and doesn't care about the detriment of everyone else.

 

What I am sure we can agree on is that the preferred strategy for West Yorkshire was (as of December 2013) to develop a Quality Contract scheme and the alternative bus partnership was the fallback position. It would not surprise me if your inside information is true (it is the sort of capitulation I am used to seeing in the public sector) but the fact is they have yet to find the courage to announce their lack of courage and the u-turn!

All bus companies hate Quality Contracts as they have handed more powers to the PTEs, and in turn more power to the PTEs means less power for the franchise holders of the different routes. This is why Voluntary Agreements came about (Sheffield was one of the first that came up with them) as the operators got together in order to avoid Quality Contracts. The operators didn't want to be forced to do things with specific penalties if they fell short in anything written into the contracts. Voluntary Agreements being voluntary by nature means that they're agreeing to work in partnership with others for the benefit of the customers but that they can then share blame if things go wrong. PTEs don't want to force Quality Contracts because they don't want to alienate the franchinse holders and have the added workload of policing the quality contracts. Seperately, if a Quality Contract is broken, they then don't want to have to find another company to step in if a franchise is taken away - there have to be penalties for breach of contract else by their very nature, they become pointless and expensive for no gain. To that end, Quality Contracts have become a means of threat that a PTE can claim to the operators to keep them in line.

In my opinion it is embarrassing to capitulate to operator pressure and the PTE/WYCA should have the backbone to call their bluff. The fact is that there are a number of large foreign owner bus operators looking to gain market share and I do not believe that the likes of Stagecoach and First would be dumb enough to refuse to bid for franchise operations and let rivals in to challenge their dominance. Pathetically weak, risk adverse, leadership and it is a common problem... see recent revelations in Rotherham as an example of it happening in other service areas.

You'll not get any PTE to push through any more Quality Contracts for some time yet, as nobody wants to be the next to jump and have to sort out how in practice it will all work in practice. TAS pushed a hard argument to West Yorkshire PTE in 2010. Whilst West Yorkshire voted against Quality contracts, Tyne and Wear threatened them last year to become the first to impliment them and then subsequently sparked a bus war which they didn't want which then suddenly resulted in an operator making major changes to axe the less profitable routes prior to the Quality Contract coming into force in 2015. A lot of other areas are looking to this as an example of some of the problems that could occur if they then try and impliment Quality Contracts. It's also telling that in the years since Quality Contracts were legistlated for in the transport act 2000, by 2008 no PTE/LTA had taken them up. (ref: policy context point 4)