Muslims protest in response to Rotherham Abuse Scandal

[Mister M]

My bold - but nobody is saying the problem of sex abuse is unique to any one ethnic/religious group. What people are pointing out is that grooming gangs are clearly disproportionately Asian/Muslim and that is clearly evidence of a cultural problem that could, and should, be addressed.

 

---------- Post added 22-09-2014 at 19:51 ----------

 

 

The community has some responsibility because the offenders are freaks of nurture, not nature.

 

There have been a number of responses about grooming gangs from religious community leaders and youth groups in the areas it has happened that I'm aware of. I think I posted a link either on this thread or another thread.

I do remember on the news about 2 years ago there was a news report about the grooming of children on the internet, and the anchor man/woman on the news reported that the perpetrators were predominantly middle class professionals like accountants, etc. Do you think that there should be similar apologies / demonstrations from community leaders that these people come from? I think I remember that the reporter mentioned that the perpetrators were white

[boyfriday]

There were people willing to speak the truth who were silenced, see link in previous post. I think for some the threat of losing their job when you have a house to pay for and family to feed would have been enough.

 

We so often here see examples of 'political correctness gone mad', when discussing employee rights. Do you honestly think a public body would get away with sacking someone because they pressed for an investigation into widespread abuse of children?

 

Personally I believe the odds, compensation and retirement to a tropical beach would be stacked heavily in their favour. Oh and let's not forget the praise from a grateful public, Muslims and non Muslims alike.

 

---------- Post added 23-09-2014 at 13:14 ----------

 

A town with a population of just over 248,000 people, 8% of those of ethnic minorities in 2011, only 3.1% Pakistani or Kashmiri

That equates to 1,400 sex offences committed by community of less than 20,000 if you include all ethnic minorities,paper suggested it came mainly from the Pakistani Kashmiri population which is less than 7500, now if 7500 sex cases are down to a population of 7500, well I for one am speechless.

 

How many of those 7500 people had offences attributed to them? It's likely the abusers were serial abusers.

 

If you want to extrapolate and conject with figures, how about this?

 

It's very unlikely each abuser only committed one offence.

It's very unlikely all offences have come to light-let's say it's 2000 in total.

Sexually active males perhaps number 30% of the 7500 (2250), so adding weight to your argument.

The reported offences were committed over a long period of time, 10 years, so the potential 'abuser population' is greater than 2250, because the pool of abusers wasn't static.

 

So let's say there are 200 actual cases of abuse at any one time. How many do you think could be enacted by one individual, 100, 50, 20 at any one time?

 

Let's say 10. That would mean from a sexually active male population of 2250, 200 cases of abuse at a given point in time could be committed by as few as 20 men, which is less than 1% of the relevant population.

 

Forgive the fag packet maths, but I'm sure you get my point.

[charmer]

There have been a number of responses about grooming gangs from religious community leaders and youth groups in the areas it has happened that I'm aware of. I think I posted a link either on this thread or another thread.

I do remember on the news about 2 years ago there was a news report about the grooming of children on the internet, and the anchor man/woman on the news reported that the perpetrators were predominantly middle class professionals like accountants, etc. Do you think that there should be similar apologies / demonstrations from community leaders that these people come from? I think I remember that the reporter mentioned that the perpetrators were white

 

 

That is a straw man argument, you are missing the point.

 

It is claimed that there is something within Pakistani and/or Islamic culture that allows sex with children. The claims center on passages in the Qu'ran that permit fornication with pre-pubescant girls, the only caveat being if the pre-pubescent girl is a widow, a period of 3 months must have elapsed since the death of their former spouse. There is ample evidence in the Sunnah that Muhammed had sex with pre-pubesent girls.

 

This can not be argued as the scriptures survive today. This isn't a judgement call.

 

You would only have a point if there was a book and an example that all middle class white men follow, like there is with Muslims. Within this book and example, there must be directives that it is ok to have sex with pre-pubescent girls. As there is not, it is difficult to link the people being white and middle class with their actions. Therefore your analogy falls short.

 

Every culture, including both our own and Islam, have problems. The treatment of females, and by extension pre-pubescent females, is, in my opinion, a problem within the Islamic community (not exclusively so, but more so than my culture. A problem with our culture is a patholicigal need to control the world, resulting in millions of deaths.

 

I am not being traitorous in recognising the failings of my own culture any more than I am being racist in identifying problems in others.

[Mister M]

That is a straw man argument, you are missing the point.

 

It is claimed that there is something within Pakistani and/or Islamic culture that allows sex with children. The claims center on passages in the Qu'ran that permit fornication with pre-pubescant girls, the only caveat being if the pre-pubescent girl is a widow, a period of 3 months must have elapsed since the death of their former spouse. There is ample evidence in the Sunnah that Muhammed had sex with pre-pubesent girls.

 

This can not be argued as the scriptures survive today. This isn't a judgement call.

 

You would only have a point if there was a book and an example that all middle class white men follow, like there is with Muslims. Within this book and example, there must be directives that it is ok to have sex with pre-pubescent girls. As there is not, it is difficult to link the people being white and middle class with their actions. Therefore your analogy falls short.

 

Every culture, including both our own and Islam, have problems. The treatment of females, and by extension pre-pubescent females, is, in my opinion, a problem within the Islamic community (not exclusively so, but more so than my culture. A problem with our culture is a patholicigal need to control the world, resulting in millions of deaths.

 

I am not being traitorous in recognising the failings of my own culture any more than I am being racist in identifying problems in others.

 

 

I know very little about the mindset of those who rape and abuse children (thankfully), but my gut feeling is that when these Asian predators groomed and raped childeren, the Qu'ran was far from their minds. They may make excuses such as 'the girls enjoyed/deserved it', justifications that are familiar to most paedophiles; but I very much doubt that they'd say that their holy book allowed them to do it - and I'm sure if they did make that excuse there would be plenty of Muslims who would challenge their interprestation of the Qu'ran.

[dutch]

And it is not just Islamic people who do grooming. Polish and Ukrainian are known to be in the majority of groomers in Netherlands.

Better watch out all over the place.

It is usually not domestic people who groom their own girls would be a better thing to say than getting the religion involved in it.

[SevenRivers]

We so often here see examples of 'political correctness gone mad', when discussing employee rights. Do you honestly think a public body would get away with sacking someone because they pressed for an investigation into widespread abuse of children?

 

Personally I believe the odds, compensation and retirement to a tropical beach would be stacked heavily in their favour. Oh and let's not forget the praise from a grateful public, Muslims and non Muslims alike.

 

Do I think a public body would get away with it?

 

Hmmm, well let's consider what they have been getting away with - concealing child sexual exploitation, something far worse than a matter of one person job.

 

Also look at the report I linked to, they DID try to get her sacked. They were unsuccessful, but the intent was there. It begs the question of how many people were not quite so lucky to have been seconded from another employer like the Home Office, because they were employees of RMBC.

 

So in answer to the question, do I think they would get away with it, the evidence suggests yes, they did, and a whole lot more. A more pertinent question would be why do you think they wouldn't get away with it?

[johncocker]

I think it was Baudrillard, back in the 80s, who speculated that sexual frustration of young Islamic males left some of them them susceptible to violent indoctrination, as the system fails utterly to deal with the normal healthy sexual development of either sex.

More so than other belief systems, Islam seems to fetishize a non-existent hereafter at the grave expense of the living.

If our authorities still wish to avoid giving any offence such a system, then we truly are doomed as a species, probably deservedly so.

 

 

 

, the PC brigade as as much to blame for this as the perps.

[charmer]

I know very little about the mindset of those who rape and abuse children (thankfully), but my gut feeling is that when these Asian predators groomed and raped childeren, the Qu'ran was far from their minds. They may make excuses such as 'the girls enjoyed/deserved it', justifications that are familiar to most paedophiles; but I very much doubt that they'd say that their holy book allowed them to do it - and I'm sure if they did make that excuse there would be plenty of Muslims who would challenge their interprestation of the Qu'ran.

 

If the doctrine you base your life on permits such abuse then said abuse is probably seen as less as an anathema to society. The reason I hate child abuse is not because it is against nature, but because it is against the regulations of the society I was born into.

 

Peadophillia was rife in Ancient Greece, society encouraged men to fornicate with pre-pubescent boys. The people having sex with these boys didn't think they were doing anything wrong, and in a way, they weren't.

[boyfriday]

Hmmm, well let's consider what they have been getting away with - concealing child sexual exploitation, something far worse than a matter of one person job.

They only got away with it whilst they did nothing about it, a (rightly) disgruntled employee who lost their job for upholding their position wouldn't have concealment to worry about.

Also look at the report I linked to, they DID try to get her sacked. They were unsuccessful, but the intent was there. It begs the question of how many people were not quite so lucky to have been seconded from another employer like the Home Office, because they were employees of RMBC.

I don't doubt it however the point I was addressing was one where you suggested they would no recourse if they were sacked.

So in answer to the question, do I think they would get away with it, the evidence suggests yes, they did, and a whole lot more. A more pertinent question would be why do you think they wouldn't get away with it?

 

Well they haven't 'got away with it' have they? Thacker's gone, Wright's gone and Kimber's gone, the weight of public opinion rounded on them once their shortcomings had been highlighted.

 

Hopefully, the inquiry will continue, bringing all the abusers to justice and those who failed the victims to answer.

[johncocker]

If the doctrine you base your life on permits such abuse then said abuse is probably seen as less as an anathema to society. The reason I hate child abuse is not because it is against nature, but because it is against the regulations of the society I was born into.

 

Peadophillia was rife in Ancient Greece, society encouraged men to fornicate with pre-pubescent boys. The people having sex with these boys didn't think they were doing anything wrong, and in a way, they weren't.

 

care to elaborate why they weren't:suspect: