Holiday pay ruling to impact millions of workers

[Obelix]

It is the case that employers change contracts though. Generally with the caveat that if you don't like it, you can refuse and be out of a job.

 

Not legally they can't unless they can show it's in the business needs - or it's not detrimental. Otherwise it's either unfair dismissal or constructively dismissed depending on what exactly happens

[Bonzo77]

Not legally they can't unless they can show it's in the business needs - or it's not detrimental. Otherwise it's either unfair dismissal or constructively dismissed depending on what exactly happens

 

It happens all the time though. An employer can simply tell their staff that their 9-5 hours are being changed to shift patterns, give them enough notice and that's that. The staff can't refuse.

[milquetoast1]

It might be possible to claim for unfair dismissal or constructive dismissal, but it's by no means a guaranteed win.

 

https://www.gov.uk/your-employment-contract-how-it-can-be-changed/getting-agreement

 

It might not be a guaranteed win, and any payout might be negligible compared to losing a job, but if an employer wants to force a change in contract without your agreement then it is constructive dismissal.

 

The key word is agreement.

 

My response was to "if you don't like it, you can refuse and be out of a job".

 

It's not quite so black and white. You can explain why you don't like it and attempt to agree something different, you can leave your job with a constructive dismissal claim that might be worth something between naff all and quite a lot, or just begrudgingly accept the terms.

 

Sometimes an employee might refuse to sign new terms and it's actually the employer that begrudgingly accepts the situation and keeps them on the old terms because they are a good employee.

[Obelix]

It happens all the time though. An employer can simply tell their staff that their 9-5 hours are being changed to shift patterns, give them enough notice and that's that. The staff can't refuse.

 

Of course they can refuse. I really don't know where you get this from - any employer that did that would lose a tribunal immediately.

[milquetoast1]

It happens all the time though. An employer can simply tell their staff that their 9-5 hours are being changed to shift patterns, give them enough notice and that's that. The staff can't refuse.

 

Of course they can refuse. It's just that they usually don't, or don't think they can, or the job market is sufficiently rubbish that it's not worth a couple of months money in compensation to be looking for a new job. Probably the latter.

[Bonzo77]

Of course they can refuse. I really don't know where you get this from - any employer that did that would lose a tribunal immediately.

 

That's not what happened when I worked for HSBC. They told us our hours were changing and that was that. Nothing we could do about it. A parents there was something in their contracts that stated they could make amendments at any time, with enough given notice. Surely all employment contracts have these clauses in them?

[milquetoast1]

It happens all the time though. An employer can simply tell their staff that their 9-5 hours are being changed to shift patterns, give them enough notice and that's that. The staff can't refuse.

 

It's this sort of thinking, which is prevalent, that helps employers get away with all sorts of nonsense.

 

At the companies I've worked at, I bet 9 out of 10 employees don't even read their contracts when they are given new ones to sign.

 

Of course the employer has some protection too, and if a change is in the business needs and it's not detrimental then the employee will not be able to refuse. But if an employee is being asked to accept shift patterns, or change location (beyond a specified distance), then an employee will certainly be entitled to constructive dismissal.

[Obelix]

That's not what happened when I worked for HSBC. They told us our hours were changing and that was that. Nothing we could do about it. A parents there was something in their contracts that stated they could make amendments at any time, with enough given notice. Surely all employment contracts have these clauses in them?

 

In which case you were not previously working 9-5 hours were you? You were working hours that could be whatever your employer liked and you agreed to that at contract time...

 

Some contracts have those terms, some don't. Some will specify "core hours" and overtime "as and when required subject to a maximum of 2.5 hours per day and 8 hours per week" for example.... some will specify exact hours in say a factory..

[Cyclone]

Not legally they can't unless they can show it's in the business needs - or it's not detrimental. Otherwise it's either unfair dismissal or constructively dismissed depending on what exactly happens

 

Not that high a bar "business need" is generally fairly easy to establish for a business.

[Obelix]

Not that high a bar "business need" is generally fairly easy to establish for a business.

 

Do people really think though that employers go around just looking to be awkward because they can? If an employer was going to say make a change in hours to work just to pursue a small profit most wont - because it annoys the workforce, it makes them less productive, more likely to leave and all that costs the business a lot more money than they would probably make from the change. It takes a real significant requirement for that to be overcome and hence the need is usually quite obvious.