Cleveland, US. Police kill boy, 12

[Member]

Well, we know what thought did.

 

Followed a **** cart thinking it was a wedding. Whats your point or dont you have one?

[johncocker]

Unbelievable. A 12 year old with a toy gun is shot and killed by police because they didn't know whether it was real or not (he wasn't pointing it at anyone):

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30172433

 

This is partly to do with staggering police incompetence, but also a result of a culture in which it is assumed that 12 year olds may well be running around a school yard playing with a real gun.

 

 

unless you have been asleep for the last couple of decades there's been a spate of kids killing kids with guns at schools . Its unfortunate what happened but if that had been a real gun and that child had killed a couple of his friends before being stopped you would have been screaming at the police as well.

It looked like a real gun and unless you have some unknown super power , then slagging people off for doing a job that you would never have the guts to undertake is cowardly!

[Bonzo77]

unless you have been asleep for the last couple of decades there's been a spate of kids killing kids with guns at schools . Its unfortunate what happened but if that had been a real gun and that child had killed a couple of his friends before being stopped you would have been screaming at the police as well.

It looked like a real gun and unless you have some unknown super power , then slagging people off for doing a job that you would never have the guts to undertake is cowardly!

 

It's not "unfortunate" at all. It's tragic. Killing a 12 year old boy because there might have been a slim chance that he could have killed others is not a good thing.

[roosterboost]

Unbelievable. A 12 year old with a toy gun is shot and killed by police because they didn't know whether it was real or not (he wasn't pointing it at anyone):

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30172433

 

This is partly to do with staggering police incompetence, but also a result of a culture in which it is assumed that 12 year olds may well be running around a school yard playing with a real gun.

 

Actually the reports say he was pointing it at everyone, but don't let the truth get in the way of your rant.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/23/justice/cleveland-police-shooting/index.html

 

Police were summoned to the scene outside a recreation center by a 911 caller who said someone -- possibly a juvenile -- was pointing a gun at people.

"There's a guy in there with a pistol, you know, it's probably fake, but he's like pointing it at everybody," the caller said, according to audio provided by CNN affiliate WEWS.

 

"He's sitting on a swing right now, but he's pulling it in and out of his pants and pointing it at people," the caller said. "He's probably a juvenile, you know?"

 

When the two officers arrived, the boy did not point the weapon at them or otherwise threaten them, Deputy Chief Ed Tomba of the Cleveland Division of Police told reporters early Sunday.

 

But he did reach for the weapon, Tomba said.

 

"The officers ordered him to stop and to show his hands and he went into his waistband and pulled out the weapon," he said.

 

Tomba showed reporters the weapon -- a large, black BB- or pellet-type replica gun resembling a semiautomatic pistol. An orange tip indicating the gun was an air gun had been removed, police said.

 

 

 

---------- Post added 24-11-2014 at 14:58 ----------

 

What else could they have done?

 

They could have stood off at a safe distance, under cover, and waited a few more precious seconds.

 

They could have fired warning shots into the air.

 

Worse case scenario, they could have shot the boy in the leg or somewhere none fatal.

 

Having said that, I can see why the police in the US don't like taking any risks. People this age have been on shooting sprees before. But I don't think "shoot to kill", was necessary here.

 

It only takes a second for someone with a gun to fire off a shot an kill an innocent party. Shooting someone in the leg with a handgun is not an easy task, and probably won't prevent them firing off a shot in shock.

Its very easy for folk who weren't there in such a pressure situation to make hindsight judgements. The fact remains that someone waving a gun will be assumed to be armed and dangerous, and even a 12 year old in America would know this.

Edited November 24, 2014 by roosterboost

[martok]

Actually the reports say he was pointing it at everyone, but don't let the truth get in the way of your rant.

 

---------- Post added 24-11-2014 at 14:58 ----------

 

 

It only takes a second for someone with a gun to fire off a shot an kill an innocent party. Shooting someone in the leg with a handgun is not an easy task, and probably won't prevent them firing off a shot in shock.

 

The bullets is also more likley miss or come out the other side so could hit someone else.

[L00b]

It's not "unfortunate" at all. It's tragic.

It is both, really.

 

Had the kid complied with the officer's directions (like you'd ordinarily expect a 12 year old to do), the officer would not have been compelled to choose between firing and not firing.

Killing a 12 year old boy because there might have been a slim chance that he could have killed others is not a good thing.

I very much doubt that there was actual intent to kill, rather than to disable.

 

Moreover, to help put things in still more perspective, do we know how big that 12 year old was?

 

I know a couple of 11 year olds who are nearly as big as me (1.75m)!

[roosterboost]

It is both, really.

 

Had the kid complied with the officer's directions (like you'd ordinarily expect a 12 year old to do), the officer would not have been compelled to choose between firing and not firing.

I very much doubt that there was actual intent to kill, rather than to disable.

 

Moreover, to help put things in still more perspective, do we know how big that 12 year old was?

 

I know a couple of 11 year olds who are nearly as big as me (1.75m)!

 

Late November in Cleveland Ohio he ain't going to be walking around in shorts and a T shirt.

Not only that. He also had the appearance of someone with rather more fire power than a police officer. A semi auto is probably capable of firing off 7 or 8 rounds in 4 seconds.

The sad thing is that a Police Special (probably a .38 ) is pretty rubbish but will bring down a large man. A round hitting a youth is likely to be fatal in parts of the body where it would just wound an adult

Edited November 24, 2014 by roosterboost

[RootsBooster]

I very much doubt that there was actual intent to kill, rather than to disable.

 

I dunno about that, usually two shots to the upper body isn't an attempt at simply disabling someone.

 

Some stuff here (I haven't had time to read it, just a quick google result)...

http://www.pfoa.co.uk/110/shooting-to-wound

[Obelix]

Late November in Cleveland Ohio he ain't going to be walking around in shorts and a T shirt.

Not only that. He also had the appearance of someone with rather more fire power than a police officer. A semi auto is probably capable of firing off 7 or 8 rounds in 4 seconds.

The sad thing is that a Police Special (probably a .38 ) is pretty rubbish but will bring down a large man. A round hitting a youth is likely to be fatal in parts of the body where it would just wound an adult

 

I doubt that was the calibre used, almost all of the police in the US seem to have dropped revolvers for automatics now. Last time I was shooting on a police range over there and that was nearly ten years ago they were saying it was 9mm 40S&W or .45 that seemed to be the sidearms of choice.

[L00b]

He also had the appearance of someone with rather more fire power than a police officer. A semi auto is probably capable of firing off 7 or 8 rounds in 4 seconds.

The kid's handgun was a Colt 1911 replica. That usually comes in .45 ACP semi-auto, and that's a bad round alright. I don't know about 'more firepower' than a police officer though, because these days the "standard" for US law enforcement seems to 40 S&W hollow-point (I am told very many officers favour the SIG 22x series), and in practical terms, that's way worse.

I dunno about that, usually two shots to the upper body isn't an attempt at simply disabling someone.

It really is, you know. With pistols, double-tapping is standard regardless of whether you are shooting to kill or wound (and I don't believe any officer who shoots is or could "shoot to wound": they'll be shooting to centre mass, hoping to only disable and wound, but that's one for luck and ballistics). You're shooting twice for redundancy, to get at least one shot on target.

 

Not a bragging post but I have shot with quite a variety of real handguns ("real steel" as airsofters call it) in varying calibres over the years, from .22 single-shot match-grade handguns to full-bore 45 ACP semi-autos, and the take-away point is that non-match handguns are difficult to aim and shoot precisely at even short range at the best of times, never mind in life-threatening situations.

Edited November 24, 2014 by L00b
added linky