Christmas without Ikkle baby Jesus?

[MikeDaMouse]

I suppose it depends on what you believe in doesn't it? If your a Christian then it is about Jesus, If not its not.

 

Although Christmas whether you like it or not is defo is to do with Jesus... Saying otherwise is rubbish.

[SnailyBoy]

I suppose it depends on what you believe in doesn't it? If your a Christian then it is about Jesus, If not its not.

 

Although Christmas whether you like it or not is defo is to do with Jesus... Saying otherwise is rubbish.

 

What do you believe in and why?

[L00b]

My stance in this thread is also quite a traditionalist one, Jesus has never played any part in my Christmas celebrations, nor for the generation before me. It's been tradition my entire life that Jesus has never been involved in any of my Christmas celebrations.

That may well be your tradition, but that's not the cultural norm (still) in this and most other countries with a strong Christian heritage, which is the one I was on about.

 

To get back to your earlier post:

It seems that you are trying to limit the discussion, however, many seem to think that possible pagan origins of the nativity are relevant.

Insofar as the nativity is concerned (i.e. not the whole Xmas thing), many use these 'pagan origins' that date back to hundreds and hundreds of years ago as an argument to score point in a proxy "religion vs anti-religion" debate that they are trying to shoehorn in this thread, and which is what I'm pushing against.

 

The thread is about nativity plays, and the cultural norm for nativity plays for the past umpteen generations in the UK (and many other countries and for just as long) is Jesus, Mary, Gabriel, Joseph, three kings and some cattle. That's what 'traditionalist' means.

[MikeDaMouse]

What do you believe in and why?

 

I used to be an Atheist, until about 3 years ago when I got introduced to Christianity. since then I haven't looked back.

 

Its not all about looking up at the sky though is it, a lot of living like a Christian is about helping others, communities e,c,t. and the way you live your life.

 

My whole outlook on life has changed over the last few years has changed dramatically, plus what are you living for if you don't believe in anything?

 

 

Why do I believe in God? Because since becoming a Christian my life HAS got a lot better, I would recommend just going to your local church, you never know your opinion on the matter might change.

If not for religious views why not go and help out with something, there's lots of good stuff going on this time of year that you could help out with... You don't have to believe on God or anything to help out other people in need do you?

 

What do you believe and why?

[charmer]

I used to be an Atheist, until about 3 years ago when I got introduced to Christianity. since then I haven't looked back.

 

Its not all about looking up at the sky though is it, a lot of living like a Christian is about helping others, communities e,c,t. and the way you live your life.

 

My whole outlook on life has changed over the last few years has changed dramatically, plus what are you living for if you don't believe in anything?

 

 

Why do I believe in God? Because since becoming a Christian my life HAS got a lot better, I would recommend just going to your local church, you never know your opinion on the matter might change.

If not for religious views why not go and help out with something, there's lots of good stuff going on this time of year that you could help out with... You don't have to believe on God or anything to help out other people in need do you?

 

What do you believe and why?

 

 

A lot about being a Christian is also judging others, hating gays, condoning slavery, judging non-believers, believing that women should submit to their men etc.

 

You don't need to be religious to help people. I do a lot for charity and am the first to offer help if I see someone in need. Religion doesn't have the monopoly on good deeds you know.

 

I am genuinely glad that your life has got better. Religion is a good crutch for people who need it, I hope your happiness continues regardless of whether your faith does.

[SnailyBoy]

What do you believe and why?

 

I'm an atheist, which is based on wanting to believe has many true things as possible. I don't have a good reason based on the available evidence to believe in a god or gods.

 

My whole outlook on life has changed over the last few years has changed dramatically, plus what are you living for if you don't believe in anything?

 

What am I living for? To advance my knowledge, discover new things, leaving the world a better place than I found it. I've everything to live for and nothing to die for

 

Why do I believe in God? Because since becoming a Christian my life HAS got a lot better, I would recommend just going to your local church, you never know your opinion on the matter might change.

 

How did you equate beliving in a god made your life better, how did you come to the conclusion that a god did it and it wasn't a sense of well being resulting from being part of a local community.

[Ryedo40]

I used to be an Atheist, until about 3 years ago when I got introduced to Christianity. since then I haven't looked back.

 

Many people, before recognising they are atheist, have been Christians. And they have never looked back.

 

Its not all about looking up at the sky though is it, a lot of living like a Christian is about helping others, communities e,c,t. and the way you live your life.

 

Helping others is part of our humanity - regardless of whether we are atheist, theist or religious.

 

My whole outlook on life has changed over the last few years has changed dramatically, plus what are you living for if you don't believe in anything?

 

Are you sure you were an atheist? Only every atheist I know hold beliefs in many different things. And they have a lot to live for too: family, friends, work, hobbies and other interests. I'm quite sure the majority enjoy being alive, and being able to experience life, too. I know I do.

 

Why do I believe in God? Because since becoming a Christian my life HAS got a lot better

 

That's not really a good reason to believe in God. There are countless interests, activities and community projects you can take part in that makes life a lot better.

 

I would recommend just going to your local church, you never know your opinion on the matter might change.

 

What makes you think atheists have never been to Church - or studied religion and its theology?

 

If not for religious views why not go and help out with something

 

What makes you think atheists don't? There are plenty of atheists out there raising money for charity, giving to charity and taking part in helping the community.

[RootsBooster]

That may well be your tradition, but that's not the cultural norm (still) in this and most other countries with a strong Christian heritage, which is the one I was on about.

I disagree, the vast majority of people that I know, do not consider Jesus as any part of their Christmas celebrations. It has been this way for quite some time.

 

By culture, what exactly are you referring to?

 

 

To get back to your earlier post:

Insofar as the nativity is concerned (i.e. not the whole Xmas thing), many use these 'pagan origins' that date back to hundreds and hundreds of years ago as an argument to score point in a proxy "religion vs anti-religion" debate that they are trying to shoehorn in this thread, and which is what I'm pushing against.

 

The thread is about nativity plays, and the cultural norm for nativity plays for the past umpteen generations in the UK (and many other countries and for just as long) is Jesus, Mary, Gabriel, Joseph, three kings and some cattle. That's what 'traditionalist' means.

Unless you were around before then... at some point the Christian nativity was a new thing (and I'm not talking about the day that Jesus was 'born', I'm talking about much later). It was new when it first came about and has changed in MANY ways ever since, some things being phased out and some newer things being introduced. How far back do you want to go with your traditionalism? Would you do away with Father Christmas and Christmas trees?

[janie48]

That may well be your tradition, but that's not the cultural norm (still) in this and most other countries with a strong Christian heritage, which is the one I was on about.

 

To get back to your earlier post:

Insofar as the nativity is concerned (i.e. not the whole Xmas thing), many use these 'pagan origins' that date back to hundreds and hundreds of years ago as an argument to score point in a proxy "religion vs anti-religion" debate that they are trying to shoehorn in this thread, and which is what I'm pushing against.

 

The thread is about nativity plays, and the cultural norm for nativity plays for the past umpteen generations in the UK (and many other countries and for just as long) is Jesus, Mary, Gabriel, Joseph, three kings and some cattle. That's what 'traditionalist' means.

There was a very good documentary on TV a few years ago, about the "three kings" from the East, ancient Persia I believe they were from.

They were part of a group of respected astrologers know as the Magi or wise men.

I can't remember the title of the programme, but it was very informative. Among those interviewed were some leading astronomers.

 

 

I can never understand why those pagan symbols such as the Xmas tree, mistletoe and holly are a problem to some people. No one knew the exact birthdate of Jesus, so adopting some pagan customs and celebrating at the same time as them doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

 

Though having said that I do wonder now if cutting down trees to decorate is eco friendly and a good thing for the environment?

Edited December 19, 2014 by janie48

[flamingjimmy]

There was a very good documentary on TV a few years ago, about the "three kings" from the East, ancient Persia I believe they were from.

They were part of a group of respected astrologers know as the Magi or wise men.

 

You just reminded me of an article I read the other day, it's from a comedy website, granted, but it's sourced well enough anyway, at least as reliable as a tv show you vaguely remember from a year ago.

 

"Picture a Nativity scene. You can build one out of action figures, for reference. We suggest He-Man and She-Ra for Joseph and Mary, Pokemon for the animals, and maybe a little Krang or something for Jesus. There are not a lot of baby-sized action figures to choose from. Got your scene? Good, now let's dissect it: First up, those three kings, the wise men (Power Rangers, obviously). Except the gospels don't mention kings visiting young Jesus, only a group of magi from the east. Magi weren't royalty, but rather priests or wise men versed in astrology and magic, because it's not a birthday party without a magician, Mom.

 

Now, hopefully these were at least royal court magi, because your run-of-the-mill magi were a pretty sketchy bunch -- they're described throughout the Bible as frauds, snake oil salesmen, and swindlers. It's assumed that these weren't lowly street magi based on the luxury gifts they came packing, though one Old Testament verse suggests that they were just as likely to be traveling salesmen as they were wandering nobility -- an interpretation shunned by church authorities, but that was understandably popular with Renaissance businessmen.

 

Yeah, we know "and then a bunch of knife-salesmen showed up" doesn't exactly set a holy scene. It gets worse: The magi's choice of gifts would have raised some eyebrows, too, given how frequently the Bible mentions both frankincense and myrrh as aphrodisiacs. Now, we're not saying a bunch of shady, door-to-door sex toy salesmen showed up for the birth of Christ, but ...

 

It wasn't until the Middle Ages that the magi began to be described as kings, largely to make the New Testament story better match the Old Testament messiah prophecies, and probably because "kings" sounded better than "magical spice perverts."

 

source

Edited December 19, 2014 by flamingjimmy