Christmas without Ikkle baby Jesus?

[Harrystottle]

It's possible to criticise something without sneering at it. But when it comes to Christianity criticism and sneering seem interlinked, note the title of this thread for example.

[Ryedo40]

It's possible to criticise something without sneering at it. But when it comes to Christianity criticism and sneering seem interlinked, note the title of this thread for example.

 

I agree with you. To purposely offend for the sake of offending isn't very nice. But being able to sneer at a religion - without being punished or slaughtered - is a good sign, IMO. It means people, even of the religion being sneered at, have been forced to become a little more civilised than the religion of their ancestors.

[flamingjimmy]

Would you like to link me to the piece of Statute which makes the UK a secular country, then?

Sure, after you point me to the part where I said the UK is an entirely secular country, we're still a ways off. I merely said that I'm allowed to mock and belittle any ideas or beliefs that I like.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should: that is what respect and tolerance brings about.

And I don't, in lots of circumstances. D'you think I go up to Christians in the street and start mocking them? Or do you think I tease my Christian friends about all the things I find silly about their religion? No. But on this public internet forum, and on a thread like this, which was a discussion started around this subject:

Is anyone really bothered [about people having alternative Christmas celebrations at Schools that don't feature Jesus]? Im not but then i know that the story of Jesus is a fake and everything about it is made up and stolen from earlier myths and legends.

Are you bothered? Does it even matter?...

I don't really see the problem, and in fact think it's pretty appropriate here.

 

Are you familiar with the concept of an oxymoron?

Yes, you have not identified one here though.

4th down on 1st page OK with you?

Sure, yeah that's a fine definition.

 

"the behavior of people who do things that they tell other people not to do : behavior that does not agree with what someone claims to believe or feel"

 

When have I ever told anyone not to celebrate Christmas?

Or what is that I claim to believe or feel in that doing all the things I listed earlier at Christmas time go against?

 

Or the other one you posted

 

"a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion."

 

I'm certainly not doing that, I'm not pretending to be a Christian when I celebrate Christmas, or feigning religion or virtue.

 

I don't pretend to know you any better than through your posts. They do not accord with the above sentence

Well the above sentence was entirely true, so perhaps you've been misunderstanding my posts.

[Ryedo40]

Merry Christmas

 

[pigeon]

This is the. Worst most boring thread in the forums history

[Halibut]

This is the. Worst most boring thread in the forums history

 

No it isn't. Your sentence was pretty dreadful though - what the heck is that full stop there for?

[Bonzo77]

Why not? The religion bashers on here are saying that they dont want christmas and as christmas is the reason for the bank holidays then they dont want the bank holidays - simples

 

Has anyone actually said they don't want the bank holidays?

 

I'm an Atheist but I wouldn't want to give my bank holidays up.....If I worked full time etc.

[Mecky]

I think people should be able to do what they want about Christmas. If they don't want to observe it, that's fine providing they don't try and tell me what to do

[RootsBooster]

Genuine question: why should I hold your opinion as more valid than e.g. just under two millenia of Christian beliefs and the time-honoured Oxford dictionary's definition of the word?

I look forward to your answer.

It was, obviously, just a flippant statement. My point is that the Christmas period is and always has been different things for different people. Christianity in no way holds the monopoly on Christmas.

 

Hence the comment about it not being Jesus' birthday.

Just a few snips from your link;

 

"While the birth year of Jesus is estimated among modern historians to have been between 7 and 2 BC, the exact month and day of his birth are unknown."

 

"The date of Christmas may have initially been chosen to correspond with the day exactly nine months after early Christians believed Jesus to have been conceived,[23] or with one or more ancient polytheistic festivals that occurred near southern solstice (i.e., the Roman winter solstice)"

 

"The celebratory customs associated in various countries with Christmas have a mix of pagan, pre-Christian, Christian, and secular themes and origins"

 

"in Eastern Christianity the birth of Jesus was already celebrated in connection with the Epiphany on January 6.[42][43] The December 25 celebration was imported into the East later: in Antioch by John Chrysostom towards the end of the 4th century,[43] probably in 388, and in Alexandria only in the following century"

 

"Many popular customs associated with Christmas developed independently of the commemoration of Jesus' birth, with certain elements having origins in pre-Christian festivals"

 

I could go on, but it's all there in your link if you want to read up.

EDIT: on the topic of Santa, aka St Nick, have you heard of St Nicholas? Here's a primer. When I was a kid, Saint Nicholas and the Père Fouettard used to visit (State-) school every 6th December. They still do, according to my young nephews.

Of course I'm aware of Saint Nicholas, what's your point? How does a mythical figure inspired by him have anything to do with the birth of Jesus?

 

---------- Post added 03-12-2014 at 19:53 ----------

 

I wouldn't mind so much if those who don't believe or care about the nativity would treat the 24th - 26th December as normal days and work them for standard pay, and don't go in for presents and such.

 

They aren't normal days though, they aren't even exclusively "holy", as per Loob's link, Christmas is a big mix up of customs and celebrations to those with theistic faith and those without it.

 

---------- Post added 03-12-2014 at 20:06 ----------

 

No faith in baby Jesus anymore = no valid reason whatsoever to celebrate Xmas anymore

 

Coming back to this post, I find it sits oddly for several reasons;

 

- You make it sound like it's the logical or normal position, to believe in Jesus, what reason would anyone have in the first place to believe

a) in any deity?

b) in Jesus, out of all of them?

 

- Why would such a belief be associated with validity or reason for anything?

 

- Christmas is only about Jesus to those to whom it matters, being without belief in deities, Jesus in particular, does not invalidate other peoples' reasons for celebrating Christmas.

Edited December 3, 2014 by RootsBooster

[pigeon]

No it isn't. Your sentence was pretty dreadful though - what the heck is that full stop there for?

 

Very observant the full stop was a slip of my finger thanks for telling me !