Australian coffee shop seige by islamist.

[tzijlstra]

I think it's worse than useless to just write of these people as insane. We learn nothing from that, no understanding, no help at all in preventing things like this happening in the future, you're just writing these people off as humans, I think it's entirely counter productive.

 

As is ignoring the statement made by Swami that these people use religion as an excuse.

[flamingjimmy]

Re my bold.

 

Say why please.

 

I thought I did, because "we learn nothing from that, no understanding, no help at all in preventing things like this happening in the future, you're just writing these people off as humans"

 

It discourages people from actually trying to figure out what is going on and trying to sort out the problems that cause it.

 

---------- Post added 17-12-2014 at 15:22 ----------

 

As is ignoring the statement made by Swami that these people use religion as an excuse.

 

I didn't ignore it, I've been quite clear that I disagree with that viewpoint, I definitely think that religion can be a contributing factor to these things. However I don't see any way I'm going to convince Swami of that so I went down a different line. Hell I tried to take you down that line but you dodged my question twice and I gave up asking you.

Edited December 17, 2014 by flamingjimmy

[esme]

Mod Note

 

If you can't discuss the issue without making personal attacks or sweeping generalisations then the thread will be closed.

[tzijlstra]

I thought I did, because "we learn nothing from that, no understanding, no help at all in preventing things like this happening in the future, you're just writing these people off as humans"

 

It discourages people from actually trying to figure out what is going on and trying to sort out the problems that cause it.

 

---------- Post added 17-12-2014 at 15:22 ----------

 

 

I didn't ignore it, I've been quite clear that I disagree with that viewpoint, I definitely think that religion can be a contributing factor to these things. However I don't see any way I'm going to convince Swami of that so I went down a different line. Hell I tried to take you down that line but you dodged my question twice and I gave up asking you.

 

Let me indulge you in how I see this:

 

Calling islam responsible for the actions of the dissonants is akin to calling Europe a nationalist state that has expansionist ideas. It isn't, but that is what jihadists call it, as do Russians and, amusingly, some Americans.

 

All are standing around pointing fingers at each other whilst the real change (globalisation) is taking hold. It is pretty much impossible to reverse this, so instead of seeking confrontation we should be open to a fair and considerate discussion at a global level. Currently though the agenda is dominated by the traditional powers (based on economic might) and this will keep causing friction until resolved.

 

The resolution includes us here accepting that what was is not to be anymore, just as it is for tribal leaders in the North of Pakistan killing school-children (The only reason they did so is because they see schools as a symbol of interference), just as it is for idiots that decide to hold-up dozens of innocent people in a coffee-shop in a pretty poor attempt to bring a point across.

 

Stooping to the level of those barbarians is not what we should aim for, yet the rhetoric of some on this forum is exactly doing that.

[Lotusflower]

I thought I did, because "we learn nothing from that, no understanding, no help at all in preventing things like this happening in the future, you're just writing these people off as humans"

 

It discourages people from actually trying to figure out what is going on and trying to sort out the problems that cause it.

 

---------- Post added 17-12-2014 at 15:22 ----------

 

 

I didn't ignore it, I've been quite clear that I disagree with that viewpoint, I definitely think that religion can be a contributing factor to these things. However I don't see any way I'm going to convince Swami of that so I went down a different line. Hell I tried to take you down that line but you dodged my question twice and I gave up asking you.

 

Re my bold.

 

I wasn't trying to provide a solution Jimmy. I was giving my opinion on the root cause which, as you rightly predicted I would say, is that it is not religion. Yes religion is a tiny part of what I believe motivates these people but only in the sense that they use it as a tool to try and justify their evil in the eyes of other men. I called it insane and it is!

 

If solutions are what you are hoping to get from this thread I must say you surprise me. I had you down as far more savvy than that.

 

Acts of extreme cruelty by man upon man have been man's pattern since man first walked the earth. That was so before the advent of Islam or for that matter any other religion I'm guessing.

 

Whether it discourages people from actually trying to figure it all out or not makes no difference from where I stand. It is a part of the human condition and as such has always been with us.

What it would take is a monumental change in consciousness on a global level and LOVE!

 

As Harry Hill might say..."What are the chances of that happening eh?"

[Zamo]

We are going to have to agree to differ Zamo. We are not quite poles apart because there are parts of what you say I have no problem with.

However, I think it is a big error of comprehension to say that the problem stems from the religion. I stand by what I said about the vast majority of Muslims practising their faith in a peaceful way.

 

As I see it organisations like ISIS, ISIL, Al Queida, etc are full of people who are more in love with extreme violence than Allah.

They are people who have broken their connection with humanity and in all my experience and knowledge that makes them insane. Religion is an excuse and not a cause.

 

Religion is both an excuse and a cause.

 

The fact remains that people brought up in a non-Muslim environment are significantly less likely than those brought up in a Muslim environment to commit acts of extremist violence using religion as an excuse. Mother nature is clearly not creating more insane people in Muslim cultures and the difference in the outcomes must therefore be entirely down to differences in nurturing i.e. the religion/culture people are exposed to.

 

---------- Post added 17-12-2014 at 18:33 ----------

 

As is ignoring the statement made by Swami that these people use religion as an excuse.

 

Yes they do. But for every one non-Muslim that uses it as an excuse there must be 100 Muslims who use it as an excuse. See the problem?

[tzijlstra]

Yes they do. But for every one non-Muslim that uses it as an excuse there must be 100 Muslims who use it as an excuse. See the problem?

 

 

The problem I see here is that you make this utterly foundation-less statement like it is fact in an attempt to excuse your continued bashing of islam.

 

There are 1.2 billion muslims in the world Zamo.

[Zamo]

The problem I see here is that you make this utterly foundation-less statement like it is fact in an attempt to excuse your continued bashing of islam.

 

There are 1.2 billion muslims in the world Zamo.

 

And there are 6 billion non-Muslims. Despite the 6:1 ratio we see far more extremism from Muslims. It is a fact that being raised with Islam/Islamic culture increases a persons chances (many times over) of being drawn into extremism.

 

You might disagree with the conclusions I draw from the fact but denying the fact destroys your credibility. Note how in contrast I acknowledge the facts you present when making your arguments (e.g. the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving) and instead focus on why I don't think it matters. You don't even have the sense to just ignore inconvenient truths (especially when they are so obvious and nobody is going to be fooled), which is a contributing factor to you having no credibility as a serious debater.

[Guest]

And there are 6 billion non-Muslims. Despite the 6:1 ratio we see far more extremism from Muslims. It is a fact that being raised with Islam/Islamic culture increases a persons chances (many times over) of being drawn into extremism.

 

You might disagree with the conclusions I draw from the fact but denying the fact destroys your credibility. Note how in contrast I acknowledge the facts you present when making your arguments (e.g. the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving) and instead focus on why I don't think it matters. You don't even have the sense to just ignore inconvenient truths (especially when they are so obvious and nobody is going to be fooled), which is a contributing factor to you having no credibility as a serious debater.

 

Fact? Based on what- where is the evidence and can you provide a link to it please.

 

Just because you want something to be true and keep saying it- doesn't mean it will become the truth.

 

While I am here may be you can consider these facts:

 

Who started the First World War, which killed 37 million and injured 22, 379, 053 that includes 7 million civilians? Muslims?

• Who started the Second World War, which killed over 60 million, which was over 2.5% of the world population? Muslims?

• Who killed about 20 million of Aborigines in Australia? Muslims?

• Who drop the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which killed 166,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki? Muslims?

• Who killed more than 100 million Red Indians in North America? Muslims?

• Who killed more than 50 million Indian in South America? Muslims?

•

They weren’t Muslims! First of all, you have to define terrorism properly…. If a non-Muslim does something bad… it is crime. But if a Muslim commits the same, he is a terrorist.

 

So first remove the double standard… then come to the point.

[Zamo]

Fact? Based on what- where is the evidence and can you provide a link to it please.

 

Just because you want something to be true and keep saying it- doesn't mean it will become the truth.

 

While I am here may be you can consider these facts:

 

Who started the First World War, which killed 37 million and injured 22, 379, 053 that includes 7 million civilians? Muslims?

• Who started the Second World War, which killed over 60 million, which was over 2.5% of the world population? Muslims?

• Who killed about 20 million of Aborigines in Australia? Muslims?

• Who drop the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which killed 166,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki? Muslims?

• Who killed more than 100 million Red Indians in North America? Muslims?

• Who killed more than 50 million Indian in South America? Muslims?

•

They weren’t Muslims! First of all, you have to define terrorism properly…. If a non-Muslim does something bad… it is crime. But if a Muslim commits the same, he is a terrorist.

 

So first remove the double standard… then come to the point.

 

You might not trust you own ability to make judgements and draw conclusions from what see and here but most people do.

 

Where exactly have I ever blamed Muslims for ww1 or ww2 or any of the other terrible things you list? Talk about putting words in people's mouths!

 

My point is absolutely clear. Whilst other cultures can and have been infected by ideological madness, the culture currently most infected is Islamic culture. Islamic culture has a problem with religious extremism like no other culture does. It is nasty and it is a threat to everyone. The only people who can do something about it are the people who practice and pass on the culture. I therefore collectively charge all Muslims as having a responsibility for doing something about it. How can I be any clearer?