denlin Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 The tooth fairy is normally one of your parents ! One of my employers when I was a nanny said it was her turn to be the tooth fairy ! So I can easily understand the tooth fairy , my parents never played the tooth fairy game but gave me a treat for each tooth lost . Let's get this straight, the tooth fairy doesn't exist. parents used to leave a little gift in exchange for the tooth. Your parents gave you a little gift for each lost tooth but didn't play the tooth fairy game. Why did they give you a treat then? Why should God or father Christmas be any different to the tooth fairy then, ie non-existent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Could you give an example of an objective moral value? First I think it is important (and this goes back to the moral argument- which I do hold to be logical) is that no one is saying atheists cannot lead moral lives without God-the question is whether morality can be given an objective rational foundation on atheistic or naturalistic premises, and the answer is that it cannot. So by objective moral values I can relate to the Holacaust- that even if Hitler thought it was okay to murder millions of innocent Jews, or even if he had won the war- it still wouldn't have made it right to kill those people. That was and is objectively wrong- same goes with torturing 5 year old boys/girls for fun- I am just using some examples here. As stated briefly to another poster (think it was snailyboy)- that evolution and social pressures do not give any anwers as to why we have real objective views. I would love to spend time on some of these but unfortunately I just don't have this opportunity and have to dip in out of the threads. Overall I also think forums do not justify in discussing such deep related issues. All the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anfisa Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 So by objective moral values I can relate to the Holacaust- that even if Hitler thought it was okay to murder millions of innocent Jews, or even if he had won the war- it still wouldn't have made it right to kill those people. Subjective and just your opinion and by no means the opinion of everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teeny Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Let's get this straight, the tooth fairy doesn't exist. parents used to leave a little gift in exchange for the tooth. Your parents gave you a little gift for each lost tooth but didn't play the tooth fairy game. Why did they give you a treat then? Why should God or father Christmas be any different to the tooth fairy then, ie non-existent? My parents didn't want to lie to me or play false hoods with me they wanted a good relationship with me one built on trust and not lies. Man was made to worship and people worship other kinds of things such as money , pop stars etc , My parents were keen to instil truth in to my life so that our relationship wasn't tainted or destroyed because of un truths , they wanted a strong bond with me that would give me honesty and integrity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnailyBoy Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 My parents didn't want to lie to me or play false hoods with me they wanted a good relationship with me one built on trust and not lies. Man was made to worship and people worship other kinds of things such as money , pop stars etc , My parents were keen to instil truth in to my life so that our relationship wasn't tainted or destroyed because of un truths , they wanted a strong bond with me that would give me honesty and integrity I refute your premise that man was made to worship. For a start, man (homo sapiens) were not made, they evolved. How can you say you have truth in your life when you don't care if what you believe is true or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teeny Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) I refute your premise that man was made to worship. For a start, man (homo sapiens) were not made, they evolved. How can you say you have truth in your life when you don't care if what you believe is true or not? If you dont have God in there you will worship other things and make them into your gods!because man's heart has a hole in there meant for god I do care what I believe and I do Love God there is nothing wrong in that in my life I have seen much , because I believe in God I want that to be imparted into me , my faith isnt that of a young child over the years its grown and because i can see how much better my life is with God thats wrong to you? but is perfectly right to me and gives me peace , promise of a better life and gives me the strength to make it through life Edited January 8, 2015 by teeny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 First I think it is important (and this goes back to the moral argument- which I do hold to be logical) is that no one is saying atheists cannot lead moral lives without God-the question is whether morality can be given an objective rational foundation on atheistic or naturalistic premises, and the answer is that it cannot. So by objective moral values I can relate to the Holacaust- that even if Hitler thought it was okay to murder millions of innocent Jews, or even if he had won the war- it still wouldn't have made it right to kill those people. That was and is objectively wrong- same goes with torturing 5 year old boys/girls for fun- I am just using some examples here. As stated briefly to another poster (think it was snailyboy)- that evolution and social pressures do not give any anwers as to why we have real objective views. I would love to spend time on some of these but unfortunately I just don't have this opportunity and have to dip in out of the threads. Overall I also think forums do not justify in discussing such deep related issues. All the best. Just so I can try and make sense of this post clearly, can you give your definition of what objective morality is please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnailyBoy Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) If you dont have God in there you will worship other things and make them into your gods!because man's heart has a hole in there meant for god I do care what I believe and I do Love God there is nothing wrong in that in my life I have seen much , because I believe in God I want that to be imparted into me , my faith isnt that of a young child over the years its grown and because i can see how much better my life is with God thats wrong to you? but is perfectly right to me and gives me peace , promise of a better life and gives me the strength to make it through life No that isn't true, I don't have a god shaped hole in my heart, my heart works perfectly fine. That is based on fact and reality. I'm sure you do care what you believe, however I stated that you don't care if those beliefs are true. For example, you believe that your god caused a woman's shortened leg to grow. Yet were unable to demonstrate to any level that it happened in the way you described, yet you still believe it. So how can you can you say you value truth? It's hypocritical. Edited January 8, 2015 by SnailyBoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denlin Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) My parents didn't want to lie to me or play false hoods with me they wanted a good relationship with me one built on trust and not lies. Man was made to worship and people worship other kinds of things such as money , pop stars etc , My parents were keen to instil truth in to my life so that our relationship wasn't tainted or destroyed because of un truths , they wanted a strong bond with me that would give me honesty and integrity So what was the gift for if it wasn't from the tooth fairy? They emulated the exact thing the tooth fairy apparently does. Did they give you a reason why the loss of your tooth warranted a gift? Man or woman for that matter wasn't born to worship, that's only religious opinion. Some people like acquiring money, I think worshipping it is a bit OTT or watching musicians but they are tangible things not mythical beings Edited January 8, 2015 by denlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charmer Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Yes you do , as I have been told so many times that what I believe is rubbish , just like the tooth fairy etc so you need to prove to me that there is no God ! I have answered each time honestly what I believe so I put the ball firmly in your court You misunderstand. Proving a negative is a) next to impossible and b) not required. You are making the claim that God exists. The burden of proof lies with you, the claimant, not with people who refute your claim. It's a bit like me saying to you "prove you aren't a murderer". It would be very difficult for you to do so. This does not mean however, that you are a murderer, in the same way that our inability to prove God does not exist in any way proves that he does. Science is able to put theories together and substantiate them. So whilst science doesn't have all the answers it says "we believe x, this is the reason we believe x and this is how you replicate this proof". Religion says "we believe y, because this book says. You can't replicate what this book says". Evolution (for instance), can be explained and replicated (and has been by multiple people). There is evidence, fossils showing varying degrees of change, this evidence has been observed by many people of many faiths. Creationism has none of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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