Does god get fed up of having to forgive sex offenders and murderers ?

[Guest]

The 'moral argument' you put forward earlier was without any doubt whatsoever invalid.

 

That is not my subjective opinion it is an objective fact. You can't just cling to it with 'well I do hold it to be logical' as if it's your opinion against mine. It is not logical, you were objectively wrong, the argument was demonstrably invalid.

 

That's the beauty of deductive logical reasoning, you can't go wrong if you know what you're doing, you clearly don't.

 

It is your opinion in that you raised a view point on it- it doesn't mean it is unsound or incorrect.

 

The argument does stand on the basis that 'if God exists then objective morals/duties must exist'

Objective moral values/duties do exist- so the premise follows that God must exist.

 

I think the fear is that if you accept moral objectives exist then it brings God in to the question- I for one minute do not believe you reject objective morals- you seem to have a lot of things to say about certain religions- and evolution/social pressure/moral relativism plays no part in justifying why we hold certain values.

 

As stated before, no one is suggesting atheists cannot live moral lives without some divine being- they can and do.

 

It is that the grounding for any moral behaviour has to be grounded in something that trancends our human subjectivity.

 

The only basis for this is God.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Guest

[charmer]

It is your opinion in that you raised a view point on it- it doesn't mean it is unsound or incorrect.

 

The argument does stand on the basis that 'if God exists then objective morals/duties must exist'

Objective moral values/duties do exist- so the premise follows that God must exist.

 

I think the fear is that if you accept moral objectives exist then it brings God in to the question- I for one minute do not believe you reject objective morals- you seem to have a lot of things to say about certain religions- and evolution/social pressure/moral relativism plays no part in justifying why we hold certain values.

 

As stated before, no one is suggesting atheists cannot live moral lives without some divine being- they can and do.

 

It is that the grounding for any moral behaviour has to be grounded in something that trancends our human subjectivity.

 

The only basis for this is God.

 

 

Your argument is absurd. An equally likely basis is that the Matrix was actually a documentary and these objective morals are engineered into us to keep us sedate and nice to eat.

 

Objective morals can about via evolution. Humans learn how to behave to get them the best rewards. For instance, murder. I would say that the reason that we generally don't go about murdering is because we would be excluded from society if we do.

 

This exclusion lowers our chance of survival. We are pack animals and therefore it is safer for us to follow the rules of the pack.

 

The leap between objective morality and the existence of God is nonsensical and not based on any evidence. It is a huge leap to make, based on nothing with substance.

 

Why Mr Fisk, does the existence of objective morality point towards the existence of a God more than a spaghetti monster or the Matrix?

[teeny]

How could it be tested?

 

yes this can be tested by yourself by doing this : you are saying it is impossible to prove that God exists , which I actually see is absolutely the case , If god can't be proven then nothing can be proven , To me god is more powerful than that of any reality I know , To me god is theory ,or philosophy or an intellectual concept , to me God is reality , God is power, God is life , God is joy and freedom, God is peace . out of all this God is the most powerful reality there is , God exists,I can see his power at work all over the world . To me God doesn't have to prove himself as I have sought him and found him , to have this you have to seek God and find him yourself , like I said a few pages back if you are being real , seeking him with a good open heart then you will find him !

[flamingjimmy]

It is your opinion in that you raised a view point on it- it doesn't mean it is unsound or incorrect.

No you really don't get it, and probably shouldn't use terms like 'unsound' because you don't appear to understand them.

 

The argument does stand on the basis that 'if God exists then objective morals/duties must exist'

Objective moral values/duties do exist- so the premise follows that God must exist.

That does not follow. That is an invalid argument. Even if we accept the premises as true the conclusion does not follow from them. This is not just my opinion this is an objective fact.

 

Here's your argument, with A replacing 'god exists' and B replacing 'objective morals/duties exist':

 

If A is true then B is true

B is true

Therefore A is true

 

That doesn't work, that is invalid, 100% not opinion, fact.

 

I'm pretty sure you meant to do it the other way round, you need to be precise when constructing deductive arguments.

 

I think the fear is that if you accept moral objectives exist then it brings God in to the question

Not at all, in fact I even challenged you earlier to go ahead with your argument as if objective morals do exist, because it still doesn't work.

 

Ok, I want to play your game.

 

Let me clarify that I do not, for a single second, accept your premise that "Objective moral values do exist".

 

But let's just say hypothetically that I do, how does that prove the existence of god exactly?

 

Bear in mind the deductive argument you put forward earlier was not valid.

 

If you can do this you'll be halfway towards converting me to some form of deism (incidentally the only kind of god I've ever seen you put an argument for on this forum), I'll still be a long way from your Abrahamic nonsense though, which you never even seem to try to advocate.

 

I for one minute do not believe you reject objective morals

You're wrong, I absolutely do.

 

you seem to have a lot of things to say about certain religions

I have a lot of things to say about certain bands and singers too, that doesn't mean I think that quality of music can be objectively measured. Edited January 8, 2015 by flamingjimmy

[denlin]

I have morals in that I don't steal, have never physically hurt anybody and try to treat people as I would expect to be treat. tnese attributes come from the teachings of my parents who were no more religious than I am. Also I notice that Teeny seems to have ignored my post about the dolphins. Post 603

[SnailyBoy]

yes this can be tested by yourself by doing this : you are saying it is impossible to prove that God exists , which I actually see is absolutely the case , If god can't be proven then nothing can be proven , To me god is more powerful than that of any reality I know , To me god is theory ,or philosophy or an intellectual concept , to me God is reality , God is power, God is life , God is joy and freedom, God is peace . out of all this God is the most powerful reality there is , God exists,I can see his power at work all over the world . To me God doesn't have to prove himself as I have sought him and found him , to have this you have to seek God and find him yourself , like I said a few pages back if you are being real , seeking him with a good open heart then you will find him !

 

I didn't say it was impossible to prove.

 

I've maintained that no one has produced a shred of evidence, ever.

 

Most powerful reality? There is no basis in reality for your god. Saying it doesn't make it true.

 

Why don't you care about the truth?

[teeny]

I have morals in that I don't steal, have never physically hurt anybody and try to treat people as I would expect to be treat. tnese attributes come from the teachings of my parents who were no more religious than I am. Also I notice that Teeny seems to have ignored my post about the dolphins. Post 603

 

I have no idea whether dolphins are as clever as us or not I have only swam a couple of times with them , they are intelligent beings that's for sure!

The teaching of my parents were always treat others as you would wish to be treated. sadly i think we all fall short in the moral side of things , I have never gone out to deliberately hurt anyone but I may have said the wrong thing at the wrong time to somebody but with a good intention, I have never physically hurt anyone but I did fight with my cousins when I was young, My parents were Christians I know they prayed about how to bring me up and indeed they prayed for many years before I was born ! they had been waiting over 30 years for me , they never gave up hope that they would have a daughter, they also never lost hope or faith in God to give them this even though my parents were nearing 50 when I came to them, they were told by people that at the age you are you cant possibly become parents ever through adoption !! well my dad said to people , that's not true God will give us a daughter ! then one day they got a letter from the church of england children's home saying they had a 6 week old baby girl for them ! I was 6 weeks old when they collected me.

 

---------- Post added 08-01-2015 at 18:34 ----------

 

I didn't say it was impossible to prove.

 

I've maintained that no one has produced a shred of evidence, ever.

 

Most powerful reality? There is no basis in reality for your god. Saying it doesn't make it true.

 

Why don't you care about the truth?

 

I do care about the truth !!! thats why I have been spending time explaining faith to you and telling you how to find God

[RootsBooster]

if God exists then objective morals/duties must exist'

Objective moral values/duties do exist- so the premise follows that God must exist.

 

Here's your argument, with A replacing 'god exists' and B replacing 'objective morals/duties exist':

 

If A is true then B is true

B is true

Therefore A is true

 

That doesn't work, that is invalid, 100% not opinion, fact.

FJ is correct, Mr.Fisk I really don't think you see how broken the logic you are using is. I will put it yet another way for you to understand...

 

If there are fish in the tank (healthy and happy) then there must be water in the tank.

There is water in the tank.

Therefore there must be fish in the tank.

 

The last line is not sound logic, there must be water in the tank for there to be fish in the tank. It doesn't mean that there must be fish in the tank in order for there to be water in the tank.

 

Hopefully you read this and understand.

Would you mind responding to post #597 please?

[denlin]

It is your opinion in that you raised a view point on it- it doesn't mean it is unsound or incorrect.

 

The argument does stand on the basis that 'if God exists then objective morals/duties must exist'

Objective moral values/duties do exist- so the premise follows that God must exist.

 

I think the fear is that if you accept moral objectives exist then it brings God in to the question- I for one minute do not believe you reject objective morals- you seem to have a lot of things to say about certain religions- and evolution/social pressure/moral relativism plays no part in justifying why we hold certain values.

 

As stated before, no one is suggesting atheists cannot live moral lives without some divine being- they can and do.

 

It is that the grounding for any moral behaviour has to be grounded in something that trancends our human subjectivity.

 

The only basis for this is God.

 

So the morals of people who murder in the name of religion as happen in northern Ireland for example is above reproach is it if they ask for forgiveness. If you believe there is no God and this happens to be the truth where then does moral behaviour have it's basis. It's in the parental guidance. since neither of my parents were religious and I have no religion how do you account for the fact that I lead a fairly moral life

[SnailyBoy]

 

I do care about the truth !!! thats why I have been spending time explaining faith to you and telling you how to find God

 

Faith has nothing to do with truth.

 

If what you believe was true you wouldn't need faith.