Paris shooting. 17 dead

[ronthenekred]

Reports that the two suspects have been spotted in northern France robbing a gas station and that they may be headed back to Paris.

There isn't a problem with Islamic culture. There is a problem with Islamist culture. And with terrorism.

 

Decent article about the matter in today's Torygraph.

 

Pretty informative read that fella, thanks for link.

[L00b]

So you are saying that as there is no problem with Islamic culture

No. I'm saying the problem at hand is not attributable to Islam as a culture. There is a sizeable difference.

[anfisa]

Reports that the two suspects have been spotted in northern France robbing a gas station and that they may be headed back to Paris.

There isn't a problem with Islamic culture. There is a problem with Islamist culture. And with terrorism.

 

Decent article about the matter in today's Torygraph.

 

Sheria and the Koran are part of Islamic culture.

 

Under Sharia, those who insult Muhammad or Allah are to be executed. So are those who desecrate the Qur'an or commit other acts of blasphemy. This tradition began with Muhammad, as recorded in the Hadith and by his biographers. There is also a Quranic basis for it.

 

Qur'an (6:93) - "Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against Allah?" If the death penalty is prescribed for lesser crime, then it stands to reason that it should be imposed for the most "wicked".

 

Qur'an (33:57) - "Lo! those who malign Allah and His messenger, Allah hath cursed them in this world and the Hereafter, and hath prepared for them the doom of the disdained"

 

Qur'an (33:61) - [continues from above] "Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

 

From the Hadith:

 

 

 

Bukhari (59:369) - This recounts the murder of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, a Jewish poet who wrote verses about Muslims that Muhammad found insulting. He asked his followers, 'Who will rid me of this man?' and several volunteered. al-Ashraf was stabbed to death while fighting for his life.

 

 

 

Bukhari (3:106) - "The Prophet said, "Do not tell a lie against me for whoever tells a lie against me (intentionally) then he will surely enter the Hell-fire."

 

 

 

Bukhari (4:241) - Those who mocked Muhammad at Mecca were killed after he had retaken the city and asserted his authority.

 

 

 

The above Islamic texts definitely appears to justify the action.

[Chris_Sleeps]

I guarantee you that in the last 3 months more Muslim civilians have died at the hands of western weapons than western civilians at the hand of Muslim's.

Binary, again. Always back to simple "us and them" numbers game. It's too easy and too simple to play, and doesn't do anything good.

 

Muslims are killing each other too, consistently. A few days ago a suicide bomber blew herself up in the centre of Istanbul, taking a policeman with her. Muslims are the main victims of Islamist terrorism.

[L00b]

Sheria and the Koran are part of Islamic culture <etc.>

I can't remember the last time a European-based Sharia court (wherever they may exist in western Europe, but certainly not in secular republican France) issued a death sentence on those who may have insulted Muhammad or Allah. Care to refresh me?

[anfisa]

I can't remember the last time a European-based Sharia court (wherever they may exist in western Europe, but certainly not in secular republican France) issued a death sentence on those who may have insulted Muhammad or Allah. Care to refresh me?

 

Islam is not defined by how some Western Muslims live or Western laws, it is defined by its holy texts, the Koran, the Hadith and the way Muslims live in Islamic countries.

 

The holy texts determine whether something is Islamic or unislamic, and these actions according to their religious text are Islamic.

[milquetoast1]

Although the behaviour of the murderers was disgusting and their actions can't be justified in any way (unlike previous terrorist attacks), I would like to make one point to the forum.

 

I guarantee you that in the last 3 months more Muslim civilians have died at the hands of western weapons than western civilians at the hand of Muslim's.

 

So whilst their undoubtedly is a problem within Islamic culture, there is a problem within our own culture that is at least as dangerous to world peace. Adopting this hollier than thou attitude will not solve anything.

 

That would be civilians who happen to be Muslim.

 

It might seem like semantics, but it's an important difference.

 

The way you describe it is very much the "us and them" numbers game that Chris_Sleep refers too. It is exactly the mindset that is employed by the terrorists and those that support them, even innocently on this forum.

[L00b]

Islam is not defined by how some Western Muslims live or Western laws, it is defined by its holy texts, the Koran, the Hadith and the way Muslims live in Islamic countries.

 

The holy texts determine whether something is Islamic or unislamic, and these actions according to their religious text are Islamic.

And all that is relevant to the culture of Muslims living in non-Islamic countries...how?

 

Are you suggesting that Muslim culture is impervious to its cultural surroundings over the ages? Bit of a tall claim, in fact it's so tall I can't see where it ends.

 

I mean, it's not as if there haven't Muslim communities in western European countries for decades and centuries after the Quran and associated paraphernalia came about. By way of example, where was the fanaticism of Muslim Turks (a most significant majority, expectedly 95%+) when Ataturk turned the country over to republican secularism in 1923, after 7 centuries of Islamic rule? Save for the odd isolated attack every now and then, where has it been since?

 

Have you read anything about the background of the two identified perpetrators? Groomed by the likes of none other than Abu Hamza? Have you read that article I linked, by any chance? It might give you a bit of perspective

Edited January 8, 2015 by L00b

[charmer]

No. I'm saying the problem at hand is not attributable to Islam as a culture. There is a sizeable difference.

 

No you aren't;

 

Reports that the two suspects have been spotted in northern France robbing a gas station and that they may be headed back to Paris.

There isn't a problem with Islamic culture. There is a problem with Islamist culture. And with terrorism.

 

But I shall allow you to change your footing.

 

Do you not agree that Islamism is born from Islam, or do you believe it to be a completely independent movement form Islam? Is it just a massive coincidence that they are both similar?

 

Islamism is just Islam in the political sphere. By definition, you can't really be a Muslim without being an Islamist as Islam instructs you to live your life like Muhammed (the Sunnah), who was a politician.

Islam is far more prescriptive than say, Christianity in it's rulings on society, law and the way one must live their life. It is very difficult to divorce spiritual and political Islam.

[L00b]

No you aren't

I am, and will continue to be, however much interpreting of my posts and putting of words in my mouth you may do to try and satisfy your divisive, and clearly wrong, argument.

But I shall allow you to change your footing.

I'm sure you know where you can shove that until it tickles your tonsils, preferably sideways

Do you not agree that Islamism is born from Islam, or do you believe it to be a completely independent movement form Islam? Is it just a massive coincidence that they are both similar?

 

Islamism is just Islam in the political sphere. By definition, you can't really be a Muslim without being an Islamist as Islam instructs you to live your life like Muhammed (the Sunnah), who was a politician.

 

Islam is far more prescriptive than say, Christianity in it's rulings on society, law and the way one must live their life. It is very difficult to divorce spiritual and political Islam.

And on this amount of illogical scrotum contents, I shall now leave you to your narrow mind and binary thinking, as you clearly aren't worth the time and bandwidth. You might want to read up on the prescriptive character of the Bible as regards social order and values, by the way. Edited January 8, 2015 by L00b