Heaven's eternity or eternal earthly wealth?

[RootsBooster]

Unlike you, some of us are capable of looking at the evidence available to us and coming to a conclusion of our own.

 

Now I know that this will come as a shock to you, as you are incapable of having an independent thought of your own.

 

Unless you have seen someone else define it for you and you can reference a source you are lost.

 

Let me explain how I came to the conclusion you quoted.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CEUQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.apatheticagnostic.com%2Farticles%2Fmeds2%2Fmed40%2Fmed796.html&ei=l0q5VLsNhrDsBtGUgYgM&usg=AFQjCNEa4bZMGzCC_DTwFKlk_9KsTi5R5Q&bvm=bv.83829542,d.ZGU&cad=rja

 

Read that again and this time try to comprehend it.

 

In particular, take note of where it explains the definitions of Atheism in the three dictionaries it Quotes.

 

Merriam Websters: a, a disbelief in the existence of deity. b, the doctrine that there is no deity.

 

Compact Oxford Dictionary: the belief that God does not exist.

 

Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary : someone who believes that God or Gods do not exist.

 

Now it is explained that whilst some other dictionaries add additional alternative meanings others including the three quoted do not.

 

In fact the only definition that all the English dictionaries have in common is one that can be summed up as 'an affirmative belief that there is no deity '.

 

Therefore all dictionaries agree that Atheists have a belief, and that belief is in the non existence of God(s).

 

Agnostics do not have a belief with regard to either the existence or none existence of God(s).

 

And there lies the fundamental difference between the two points of view, and why there was a need for a different description.

 

Atheists think they know something, Agnostics know they don't know.

 

Understand?

You seem to have some pretty severe bipolar gig going on with regards to belief and knowledge. Several times throughout this thread you've stated that knowledge and belief are two different things and yet in subsequent posts you have synonymised them, as though they mean the same thing.

 

Just in case I missed it, where in your link does it mention atheists claiming to know something (in this context)?

Edited January 17, 2015 by RootsBooster

[mjw47]

Because, as well as being an agnostic, you are also either an atheist or a theist.

 

Everyone is either an atheist or a theist, the prefix 'a' n the word atheist means 'not' or 'without'. If you are not a theist, or are without theism, then you are an atheist, if you are not an atheist, you are a theist.

 

I ignored this post originally as being too daft to bother with.

 

However, as it is pretty obvious your mate has PMd you to help him get out of the jam he's got himself into - which is why you've suddenly appeared at this late stage - I'll respond.

 

Prove your assertion that 'everybody is either an Atheist or a Theist'.

 

As it's the stupidest statement I've heard in a long time this should be amusing.

 

In order to prove it you need to explain why the word Agnostic appears in every English dictionary as an alternative to Atheist or Theist.

 

You also need to explain why, in none of these dictionaries is an instruction given in the definition that the word must always be accompanied by a qualifier, either atheist or theist.

 

Because it isn't is it?

 

Agnostic appears on it's own as a legitimate alternative to the other beliefs.

 

So in order to justify your ridiculous claim you will need to prove that all the dictionaries are wrong, they have made a mistake, one they have been repeating for years.

 

You, and only you, are right. Go ahead oh delusional one, fire away.

 

---------- Post added 17-01-2015 at 00:05 ----------

 

You seem to have some pretty severe bipolar gig going on with regards to belief and knowledge. Several times throughout this thread you've stated that knowledge and belief are two different things and yet in subsequent posts you have synonymised them, as though they mean the same thing.

 

Just in case I missed it, where in your link does it mention atheists claiming to know something in (this context)?

 

You and your buddy have some serious issues in the nerd department.

 

Knowledge relates to facts.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CGEQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fknowledge&ei=4Ke5VKjCH6Gd7gaTu4HoAw&usg=AFQjCNG7IzX9g_EpKELEI68x7uVtEy_w4A&bvm=bv.83829542,d.ZGU&cad=rja

 

Belief relates to opinion.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CH0QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fbelief&ei=4qS5VPecDerD7gbY6YDIBw&usg=AFQjCNFaVC6dMM1WqWTL-_H9eSoV24yFrA&bvm=bv.83829542,d.ZGU&cad=rja

 

And yes before you go googling definitions in order to come up with something contradictory I am aware that words can have various meanings but in order to communicate you need to settle and agree on one.

 

Tell me do you have problems holding a conversation with normal people?

 

Once again, you need to understand that not everyone is like you. Some people can actually express an opinion not obtained from sources.

 

I know this is hard for you to grasp, constrained as you are by limited thinking where you require the reassurance of other peoples opinions but give it a try.

Edited January 17, 2015 by mjw47

[RootsBooster]

I ignored this post originally as being too daft to bother with.

 

However, as it is pretty obvious your mate has PMd you to help him get out of the jam he's got himself into - which is why you've suddenly appeared at this late stage - I'll respond.

 

Prove your assertion that 'everybody is either an Atheist or a Theist'.

 

As it's the stupidest statement I've heard in a long time this should be amusing.

 

In order to prove it you need to explain why the word Agnostic appears in every English dictionary as an alternative to Atheist or Theist.

 

You also need to explain why, in none of these dictionaries is an instruction given in the definition that the word must always be accompanied by a qualifier, either atheist or theist.

 

Because it isn't is it?

 

Agnostic appears on it's own as a legitimate alternative to the other beliefs.

 

So in order to justify your ridiculous claim you will need to prove that all the dictionaries are wrong, they have made a mistake, one they have been repeating for years.

 

You, and only you, are right. Go ahead oh delusional one, fire away.

 

---------- Post added 17-01-2015 at 00:05 ----------

 

 

You and your buddy have some serious issues in the nerd department.

 

Knowledge relates to facts.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CGEQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fknowledge&ei=4Ke5VKjCH6Gd7gaTu4HoAw&usg=AFQjCNG7IzX9g_EpKELEI68x7uVtEy_w4A&bvm=bv.83829542,d.ZGU&cad=rja

 

Belief relates to opinion.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CH0QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fbelief&ei=4qS5VPecDerD7gbY6YDIBw&usg=AFQjCNFaVC6dMM1WqWTL-_H9eSoV24yFrA&bvm=bv.83829542,d.ZGU&cad=rja

 

And yes before you go googling definitions in order to come up with something contradictory I am aware that words can have various meanings but in order to communicate you need to settle and agree on one.

 

Tell me do you have problems holding a conversation with normal people?

 

Once again, you need to understand that not everyone is like you. Some people can actually express an opinion not obtained from sources.

 

I know this is hard for you to grasp, constrained as you are by limited thinking where you require the reassurance of other peoples opinions but give it a try.

Quite frequently people ask me why I feed the trolls on here. I do it because, even though it may give them the satisfaction they crave and may take up a fraction of my precious time throughout the day, I know that if you feed them in the right way they will (over a period of many posts) give enough examples of their double speak, contraction, back peddling, false logic and all the rest, for anyone who is still actually interested to see.

 

I have a question for Smiffy and all your other account names, do the words Dark Minters rhyme with any familiar name in real life for you?

Or maybe Park Splinters?

[flamingjimmy]

I ignored this post originally as being too daft to bother with.

 

However, as it is pretty obvious your mate has PMd you to help him get out of the jam he's got himself into - which is why you've suddenly appeared at this late stage - I'll respond.

Paranoid much? Also, there's no need for ad hominem attacks, I haven't insulted you.

 

For your information rootsbooster and I have never communicated via PM as far as I recall, certainly not today. I don't know him. I've had this argument with you before I think and was observing for a while then decided to join in.

 

Prove your assertion that 'everybody is either an Atheist or a Theist'.

 

Firstly, I note that you haven't actually responded to my main point, which was where I pointed out that the article you linked to in an attempt to "explain how I came to the conclusion you quoted" was factually incorrect, and contained either a glaring error or a lie by the author.

 

In any case, I accept your challenge. A brief point first though, there is no 'official' definition of any word, words are defined by how they are used. However I think your definition is rubbish and mine is better and you should use mine.

 

The prefix 'a' means not or without. If you believe in a deity then you are a theist. If you do not believe in a deity or are without a belief in a deity then you are an atheist. It's a 0 - 1 situation, a binary choice.

 

I'm fine with you calling yourself an agnostic and not an atheist, that doesn't bother me.

 

The other point I would make and the main reason why I think my definition is much better than yours, is that if we use yours, then atheism doesn't really describe anyone. It doesn't describe the world's most famous (and possibly most annoying) atheist Richard Dawkins, it doesn't describe me, in fact it doesn't describe anyone I've ever met who would call themselves an atheist. I don't know anyone who claims to know as a fact that there are no gods, and to my knowledge have never met such a person.

 

That definition only really exists as a strawman so that those of faith can be like "see! you're just as dogmatic as us!"

 

I'm sure there are a few people out there who genuinely do think they know for a fact that there are no gods, but I've never met one.

 

Now, if we use my definition then it includes every self identifying atheist ever, isn't that much better?

 

The fact that it also includes people like you isn't really that important, as you say, when asked about what your religious views are you can of course get away with calling yourself an agnostic, people will know exactly what you mean.

 

Unfortunately because of people like you obfuscating the meaning of the word atheist when asked what my views on religion are calling myself an atheist isn't enough, I feel the need to add agnostic so that they have a better understanding of where I stand on the issue.

[mjw47]

Paranoid much? Also, there's no need for ad hominem attacks, I haven't insulted you.

 

For your information rootsbooster and I have never communicated via PM as far as I recall, certainly not today. I don't know him. I've had this argument with you before I think and was observing for a while then decided to join in.

 

 

 

Firstly, I note that you haven't actually responded to my main point, which was where I pointed out that the article you linked to in an attempt to "explain how I came to the conclusion you quoted" was factually incorrect, and contained either a glaring error or a lie by the author.

 

In any case, I accept your challenge. A brief point first though, there is no 'official' definition of any word, words are defined by how they are used. However I think your definition is rubbish and mine is better and you should use mine.

 

The prefix 'a' means not or without. If you believe in a deity then you are a theist. If you do not believe in a deity or are without a belief in a deity then you are an atheist. It's a 0 - 1 situation, a binary choice.

 

I'm fine with you calling yourself an agnostic and not an atheist, that doesn't bother me.

 

The other point I would make and the main reason why I think my definition is much better than yours, is that if we use yours, then atheism doesn't really describe anyone. It doesn't describe the world's most famous (and possibly most annoying) atheist Richard Dawkins, it doesn't describe me, in fact it doesn't describe anyone I've ever met who would call themselves an atheist. I don't know anyone who claims to know as a fact that there are no gods, and to my knowledge have never met such a person.

 

That definition only really exists as a strawman so that those of faith can be like "see! you're just as dogmatic as us!"

 

I'm sure there are a few people out there who genuinely do think they know for a fact that there are no gods, but I've never met one.

 

Now, if we use my definition then it includes every self identifying atheist ever, isn't that much better?

 

The fact that it also includes people like you isn't really that important, as you say, when asked about what your religious views are you can of course get away with calling yourself an agnostic, people will know exactly what you mean.

 

Unfortunately because of people like you obfuscating the meaning of the word atheist when asked what my views on religion are calling myself an atheist isn't enough, I feel the need to add agnostic so that they have a better understanding of where I stand on the issue.

 

That's some brass neck you have there referring to someone else as a troll when you are the very epitome of the species. @ Roosterbooster

 

I have never had any other account name I think that may be a game you play.

 

Flammingjimmy.

 

On one of the last occasions I indulged in this comic dance another poster admitted he had PMd one of the other participants so it's obviously something that your little gang engage in.

 

 

Oh deary deary me, because it's all about little you isn't it?

 

People like me obfuscating the meaning of the word Atheist, by referring to themselves as Agnostic, how does that work?

 

You have just proven my acquired opinion that you are one very strange individual.

 

'Your definition is better and I should use yours' so no purblind arrogance going on there then.

 

"You feel the need" bloody hell, I bet you're an absolute treat to bump into and pass the time of day!

 

You know that glazed look that people get when you're talking to them and the way they keep stifling a yawn and sneaking a looking at their watch?

 

Well that rarely, if ever, happens to the rest of us.

 

Your experiences are unique to you and the weird world you inhabit in your own mind.

 

Most people avoid the subject of religion for two reasons, firstly it is considered a private matter and secondly, if you don't know someone that well there's always the chance of unleashing the hidden weirdo.

 

Your acquaintances who have had the misfortune of you 'feeling the need' will know exactly what I mean and will no doubt have learned from their mistake.

 

---------- Post added 17-01-2015 at 11:05 ----------

 

 

 

 

Firstly, I note that you haven't actually responded to my main point, which was where I pointed out that the article you linked to in an attempt to "explain how I came to the conclusion you quoted" was factually incorrect, and contained either a glaring error or a lie by the author.

 

In any case, I accept your challenge. A brief point first though, there is no 'official' definition of any word, words are defined by how they are used. However I think your definition is rubbish and mine is better and you should use mine.

 

The prefix 'a' means not or without. If you believe in a deity then you are a theist. If you do not believe in a deity or are without a belief in a deity then you are an atheist. It's a 0 - 1 situation, a binary choice.

 

I'm fine with you calling yourself an agnostic and not an atheist, that doesn't bother me.

 

 

So, there is no 'official' definition of any word and presumably your definition of any word is always the best?

 

It is not a binary choice, it is not a 0-1 situation if you think that then your critical faculties are poor to the point of not being fit for purpose.

 

there are at least three choices, you can believe in a God, you can disbelieve in God(s) or you can take the view that as there are no facts to support either contention then you will accept the situation as it stands and reserve judgement.

 

a= without, we all agree?

Atheist = without God

 

Theist = no 'a' so with God.

 

Agnostic = without knowledge, don't know, unlike the other two not willing to come to any conclusion without obtaining facts to verify the decision.

 

Three clear and differing choices.

 

The same as at the next election if only Labour and the Conservatives are standing in your constituency.

 

You have three choices, vote Labour, vote Conservative, or don't vote at all.

 

Agnostics are none voters in the spiritual debate.

 

Now, as previously asked, how do you explain the presence of the word Agnostic in all English dictionaries?

 

How do you further explain that in every one of them it has a definition which differentiates it from both Atheist and Theist?

 

Big of you to be fine with me referring to myself as an Agnostic by the way, you have no idea how much that means coming from someone like you.

Edited January 17, 2015 by mjw47

[teeny]

You didn't answer honestly, you answered like a politician.

 

Anyway,

 

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:6-10[/QUOT

 

This is if you dont follow God , it speaks in a way that people understand , God tells us to follow him or we go to hell , we are told this and we either choose to follow or not , some think this isnt true but thats your choice .

[SnailyBoy]

You didn't answer honestly, you answered like a politician.

 

Anyway,

 

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

 

This is if you dont follow God , it speaks in a way that people understand , God tells us to follow him or we go to hell , we are told this and we either choose to follow or not , some think this isnt true but thats your choice .

 

'.... stoning with stones, that he die'

 

Do you think non belivers should be stoned until they are dead?

[monkey104]

Wow!...."........

[Ryedo40]

It is not a binary choice, it is not a 0-1 situation...

 

there are at least three choices,...

 

mjw,

 

0=atheist(neither believes)

1=theist(nor disbelieves)

0-1 = agnostic

 

Would you agree with that?

Edited January 17, 2015 by Ryedo40

[mjw47]

mjw,

 

0=atheist

1=theist

0-1 = agnostic

 

Would you agree with that?

 

Simply not the way I would express it, they are three distinct choices in my view,and this is backed up by three differing definitions.

 

1 = atheist

 

2 = theist

 

3 = agnostic

 

No need to complicate it, there are three choices.