Heaven's eternity or eternal earthly wealth?

[teeny]

Can't make head nor tail of the first part of that post it seems to be part flamingjimmy part you.

 

I was taught by the Catholic church that someone could enter heaven whether or not they believed in the Catholic version of Christianity providing they were good people who followed their faith.

 

This peed me off immensely because it seemed to me that Catholics had to jump through a lot more hoops than Protestants.

 

They also taught that God had mercy on sinners.

 

Your God seems a bit less accommodating.

 

Ok I see you were taught an untruth by the church , if their teaching is based on the bible there are many passages that relate to us choosing to follow and having a relationship with God ' because we sin we need forgiveness which when we say we are sorry to God he forgives us but we have to mean it and try to change .

[mjw47]

Ok I see you were taught an untruth by the church , if their teaching is based on the bible there are many passages that relate to us choosing to follow and having a relationship with God ' because we sin we need forgiveness which when we say we are sorry to God he forgives us but we have to mean it and try to change .

 

I was taught an untruth by the original Apostolic Christian Church and you believe that you know better by following the teachings of people who came along later and decided that they didn't like the instructions passed down from Peter the Apostle, as given to him by the man called Jesus Christ?

 

Fair enough your choice, sounds a little like heretical blasphemy to me but as I have no dog in the fight I wish you well.

 

These are however, some of the wisest words ever spoken on the subject, in my opinion.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CDsQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.highexistence.com%2Fquotes%2Fview%2Flive-a-good-life-if-there-are-gods-and-they-are%2F&ei=QxLFVIH6MaTn7gaCyYCoDA&usg=AFQjCNGvus9ILp3H8X-ANw0XdYNF2rzQ3w&bvm=bv.84349003,d.ZGU&cad=rja

[teeny]

Can't make head nor tail of the first part of that post it seems to be part flamingjimmy part you.

 

I was taught by the Catholic church that someone could enter heaven whether or not they believed in the Catholic version of Christianity providing they were good people who followed their faith.

 

This peed me off immensely because it seemed to me that Catholics had to jump through a lot more hoops than Protestants.

 

They also taught that God had mercy on sinners.

 

Your God seems a bit less accommodating.

 

Ok I see you were taught an untruth by the church , if their teaching is based on the bible there are many passages that relate to us choosing to follow and having a relationship with God ' because we sin we need forgiveness which when we say we are sorry to God he forgives us but we have to mean it and try to change . It's better to actually look at what the Bible says regarding salvation.

[mjw47]

Ok I see you were taught an untruth by the church , if their teaching is based on the bible there are many passages that relate to us choosing to follow and having a relationship with God ' because we sin we need forgiveness which when we say we are sorry to God he forgives us but we have to mean it and try to change . It's better to actually look at what the Bible says regarding salvation.

 

The Bible was originally written down in Hebrew, Aramaic Old Testament and Greek New Testament.

 

It has since been translated into over 500 languages.

 

It is notoriously difficult to translate exactly from one language to another.

 

Taking the Bible literally is not really such a great idea.

 

Your comment about having to mean it when repenting is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

Many Non Catholics suffer under the misconception that Catholics can basically do what they want and then go to confession and everything's OK again.

 

That's not the way it is, although no doubt a number of Catholics may act like that, it's not what they were taught.

 

The Catholic Church is the largest Christian denomination in the world with 1.2 Billion adherents.

 

Bound to be a few differences there, the teaching may be the same but the actions reactions and views may differ slightly, it is human nature to interpret things as you would like them to be as opposed to the way they are.

[janie48]

Ok I see you were taught an untruth by the church , if their teaching is based on the bible there are many passages that relate to us choosing to follow and having a relationship with God ' because we sin we need forgiveness which when we say we are sorry to God he forgives us but we have to mean it and try to change . It's better to actually look at what the Bible says regarding salvation.

Its you that's getting it wrong Teeny. Nowadays none of the major Christian religions teach that a person of a different faith, or atheists, will be denied a place in Heaven which is what you kind of alluded to on a previous post.

 

I've never believed that anyway, as I doubt most Christians do.

And if I thought that good people (many of them better then me) would be turned away simply because they weren't Christians or believers I would rather death be the end of me then live an afterlife in some place of that existence.

[flamingjimmy]

There is no hope for you I'm afraid, your lack of comprehension and obtuseness is beyond repair.

 

You are not subscribing any beliefs to me?

 

Do you deny that the word atheist means 'without god' ?

No, that's what I've been saying the whole time.

 

You are without god, as you don't have a belief in any, that's why I describe you as an atheist.

 

You debunked nothing, only in your own imagination. The claim was that all definitions of Atheist included a lack of belief in God in the description, and they do.

No that was categorically not what you claimed, I already gave you the direct quote but here it is again:

In fact the only definition that all the English dictionaries have in common is one that can be summed up as 'an affirmative belief that there is no deity '.

 

Therefore all dictionaries agree that Atheists have a belief, and that belief is in the non existence of God(s).

A claim which I disproved, using links that you yourself provided.

How can you possibly be so silly as to think you'd get away with that?

 

Any explanation yet on the existence of three separate words each with different meanings, and no rule that any of them has to reference one of the others when used?

Yes, I already explained that.

 

There are 3 separate words with different meanings because they are three separate words with different meanings.

 

And yes, each of them can be used without reference to the other. That does not mean they are mutually exclusive necessarily.

 

That's what you need to prove: That the words atheist and agnostic are mutually exclusive.

 

The fact that they are different words and can both be used without reference to the other does not make them mutually exclusive.

 

If you don't believe in God then you hold a belief that there is no God, yes?

No. This is the part that you don't get.

 

'lack of belief' does not mean 'belief in the opposite proposition'

 

We already went through this in one of the posts that you ignored because you didn't have a response:

 

So it still includes the word Disbelief? And lack means absence of.

 

What was claimed was that although some dictionaries included alternatives the one constant that they all included was an affirmative belief that there was no deity.

 

How does what you quoted contradict the claim?

 

Because what I quoted shows only one definition, that does not at all say what the author of your article claims it says. It does not contain the definition 'an affirmative belief that there was no deity' that is a lie you've been told by the author of that article.

 

It doesn't have it as an alternative meaning, it has as its one and only meaning:

 

"Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods."

 

If you're about to try and wriggle about saying that the word 'disbelief' does not mean dis-belief but actually means a positive belief in a different statement let me first point out that that is stupid, and second link you to the same dictionary which defines disbelief like this:

 

1.1 Inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real:

 

1.1 Lack of faith:

 

So that bit that you gleefully put in bold in your last post aimed at rootsbooster was straight up wrong, incorrect, and demonstrably so using links that you yourself provided.

 

---------- Post added 25-01-2015 at 18:38 ----------

 

I was taught an untruth by the original Apostolic Christian Church and you believe that you know better by following the teachings of people who came along later and decided that they didn't like the instructions passed down from Peter the Apostle, as given to him by the man called Jesus Christ?

 

Fair enough your choice, sounds a little like heretical blasphemy to me but as I have no dog in the fight I wish you well.

 

These are however, some of the wisest words ever spoken on the subject, in my opinion.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CDsQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.highexistence.com%2Fquotes%2Fview%2Flive-a-good-life-if-there-are-gods-and-they-are%2F&ei=QxLFVIH6MaTn7gaCyYCoDA&usg=AFQjCNGvus9ILp3H8X-ANw0XdYNF2rzQ3w&bvm=bv.84349003,d.ZGU&cad=rja

 

For someone who has no dog in the fight you're awfully mean, and the number of times you've called teeny's religion heresy or called the originators of her faith 'lying heretics' is rather odd. It's almost as if you have some hang ups about it and in fact do have a little dog in the fight, or are at least supporting the dog you grew up with.

Edited January 25, 2015 by flamingjimmy

[teeny]

Its you that's getting it wrong Teeny. Nowadays none of the major Christian religions teach that a person of a different faith, or atheists, will be denied a place in Heaven which is what you kind of alluded to on a previous post.

 

I've never believed that anyway, as I doubt most Christians do.

And if I thought that good people (many of them better then me) would be turned away simply because they weren't Christians or believers I would rather death be the end of me then live an afterlife in some place of that existence.

In the church that I have been going to and indeed in my previous church that is exactly what's preached .

I personally believe unless you ask God into your life and confess you sins , ask to be forgiven then you cannot go the be with God at the end of earthly life ,

I believe God is merciful and Just but I believe we ar given a choice to follow God if we say no we must accept what happens after that !

 

---------- Post added 25-01-2015 at 19:30 ----------

 

The Bible was originally written down in Hebrew, Aramaic Old Testament and Greek New Testament.

 

It has since been translated into over 500 languages.

 

It is notoriously difficult to translate exactly from one language to another.

 

Taking the Bible literally is not really such a great idea.

 

Your comment about having to mean it when repenting is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

Many Non Catholics suffer under the misconception that Catholics can basically do what they want and then go to confession and everything's OK again.

 

That's not the way it is, although no doubt a number of Catholics may act like that, it's not what they were taught.

 

The Catholic Church is the largest Christian denomination in the world with 1.2 Billion adherents.

 

Bound to be a few differences there, the teaching may be the same but the actions reactions and views may differ slightly, it is human nature to interpret things as you would like them to be as opposed to the way they are.

 

The basics are here , have you accepted Jesus as your saviour ? Do you know God in your life , do you spend time working on your relationship with God by study , prayer ?

Edited January 25, 2015 by teeny

[mjw47]

Flamingjimmy.

 

Getting bored out of my cannon with your nonsense at this stage.

 

But a point or two, the 'you are without God' crap is countered and balanced out by 'Neither believe NOR DISBELIEVE in the existence of God(s).

 

The fact that you keep conveniently forgetting about that part is an example of your twisted way of thinking

 

The number of times it has been explained to you that as far as I'm concerned the definition of Agnostic as ' Someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of God(s)' And also 'someone who follows logic as far as it can take them and is then prepared to accept their lack of knowledge'.( paraphrase, before you get all giddy over a missing or included word in Huxley's definition ) applies to me is becoming tedious in the extreme.

 

An Atheist errs on the side of there being no God(s) whatever get out of jail card they conjure up as a back up.

 

An Agnostic does not lean either way, because to do so would imply that he/she has some knowledge or belief that sways him/her in their judgement.

 

And that would be the very antithesis of Agnosticism wouldn't it?

 

So therefore, anyone including one of the other words with Agnostic is completely missing the point, aren't they?

 

Proof enough for you?

 

I understand that a lot of this nonsense of combining contrasting beliefs came about in America, a great country in many ways, but home to the biggest collection of weirdos known to man.

 

Why don't you worry about your own lack of coherence and let teeny look out for her/himself?

 

Some of teenys original posts were quoting Bible verses instructing believers to kill close family members if they worshiped other God's.

 

Teeny seemed to think that this was acceptable, so pointing out that the Church frowns on heresy doesn't seem unduly harsh to me.

 

I notice that when your Socratic mate Snailyboy and your pal Ryedo40 spent several pages having a dig at teeny you didn't bother to say anything did you?

 

By the way, 'awfully mean' how old are you?

 

You have a number of strange ways of looking at things don't you?

 

As someone who was raised a Catholic I have a basic understanding of Catholic theology.

 

You extrapolating that into me having 'hang ups' is one hell of a stupid conclusion.

 

Did the bit about me walking away from the Church endangering my immortal soul by their teaching escape your attention?

 

Knowing something about something does not necessarily mean believing or accepting it.

 

Try to grasp that fact.

[teeny]

Its you that's getting it wrong Teeny. Nowadays none of the major Christian religions teach that a person of a different faith, or atheists, will be denied a place in Heaven which is what you kind of alluded to on a previous post.

 

I've never believed that anyway, as I doubt most Christians do.

And if I thought that good people (many of them better then me) would be turned away simply because they weren't Christians or believers I would rather death be the end of me then live an afterlife in some place of that existence.

 

This is exactly what we believe Janie,

 

Statement of Beliefs

 

We believe that there is*one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three Manifestations: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

We believe that*Jesus is the Son of God. We believe that Jesus Christ was true God and true man, having been conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered, died, was buried, and rose from the dead for our total salvation. We believe that*the blood of Jesus Christ atones for our sins and iniquity. Further, we believe that Jesus Christ arose bodily from the dead, ascended into heaven, where, at the right hand of the Majesty on High, He is now our High Priest and Advocate. We believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Him.

 

We believe that the*Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ and during this age, to convict men of sin, regenerate the believing sinner, indwell, guide, instruct, and empower the believer for godly living and service. Further, we believe in*the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues, but the evidence of the Holy Spirit’s indwelling presence is a changed life. We believe that as Christians we must be filled daily by using our prayer language.

 

We believe that the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, are the inspired Word of God without error in the original writings, and complete revelation of His will for the salvation of men, and the divine and final authority for all Christian faith and life. We believe that the Bible is the true infallible Word of God, which cleanses our souls.

 

The Bible does not contain the Word of God; it is the Word of God. We believe that we are to wash and renew our minds daily by the Word of God, thereby learning His ways and exchanging our way of thinking for His.

 

We believe that*man was created in the image of God*but fell into sin and is therefore lost, and only through regeneration by the Holy Spirit can salvation and spiritual life be obtained. Therefore, every professing believer must have a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ, for apart from Him we can do nothing. Further, we believe that*each person has a ministry from God that no one else can fill. We accomplish this destiny by instructing, teaching, exhorting, and admonishing believers in the ways of God.

 

We believe that*the shed blood of Jesus Christ and His resurrection provide the only ground for justification and salvation*for all who believe, and only such as receive Jesus Christ by faith are born of the Holy Spirit and thus become children of God. It is through His shed blood that we are saved, healed and set free from bondage and the forces of darkness.

 

We believe in the*personal and imminent return of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope. We believe in the rapture, that the dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive and remain shall be caught up to meet Jesus in the air.

 

We believe that after death, eternal life begins, in heaven or hell, based on one’s decision to live according to God’s Word or rebel against God. We believe that there will be a bodily resurrection of all the dead; of the believer to everlasting blessedness and joy with the Lord, and of the unbeliever to judgement and everlasting conscious judgement.

 

We believe that the*true Church is*composed of*all such persons, who through saving faith in Jesus Christ, have been born again*by the Holy Spirit and are united together in the body of Christ.

 

We believe that*water baptism by immersion soon after accepting Christ as personal Saviour, is a testimony of death to sin and resurrection to a new life*and the Lord’s Supper is a memorial service setting forth in sacred and symbolic manner the death of Jesus Christ; all true believers and only believers should share in it.

 

We believe that*tithing and bringing offerings into the local Church is a major covenantal obligation*that we have toward God as His partners, for the support of all the ministries of the Church, the poor, homeless, the widows, and otherwise unfortunate.

 

We believe in the*manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. We believe that it is God’s will to heal and deliver His people today as He did in the days of the first Apostles and it is by the stripes of Jesus that we are healed, delivered and made whole. Further, we also believe that as New Testament believers, we have authority over sickness, disease, demons, curses, and every circumstance in life, in the name of Jesus.

[mjw47]

 

The basics are here , have you accepted Jesus as your saviour ? Do you know God in your life , do you spend time working on your relationship with God by study , prayer ?

 

That would be no, no and thrice no.

 

That's me buggered then.

 

Having said which I have a cunning plan, just in case.

 

Should I arrive at the pearly gates and find St Peter shaking his head sadly and pointing in a downward direction I am intending to ask him a question.

 

" Where is the soul of Thomas the Apostle? " I'll ask.

 

If the answer is "In Heaven" then I shall point out that although Thomas personally knew Jesus he originally doubted his resurrection.

 

Therefore, isn't it being a bit unfair to exclude me, who arrived nearly 2000 years after the event and got faced with huge amounts of conflicting story's and hadn't a clue what to believe?

 

I am confident this will earn me a reprieve.

 

Unless of course St Peter answers " You'll get to meet him when you get down there, they don't call him Doubting Thomas anymore he's known as Combustible Thomas these days. "

 

In which case. :o