Syriza to get majority in Greece.

[tzijlstra]

Dutch media reporting Oxi vote is winning. Just to be clear, that means the Greeks are voting against the EU bailout package. Things just got real, the coming week is going to be crucial.

[geared]

I wouldn't be surprised if they accepted the bailout package next week anyway, regardless of the vote outcome.

 

They were very close last week, but since the referendum had already been called no-one listened.

[atticus]

Well it looks likes the Greeks have voted against the austerity package by around 60/40 and I don't blame them

[I1L2T3]

Well done to the Greek people.

 

Now we (and they) will see just how the EU core is willing to puniush the Greek population for (in the words of one poster on here) not having elected a 'compliant government'. If I was Greek leader I'd be on the phone tonight to the Russians and Chinese to get some leverage.

 

The bailout terms were harsh. They offered nothing more than a generation of struggling to meet debt obligations, of failing services, economic depression and the highest youth unemployment in most of Europe. The non-bailout alternative may be worse short-term but at least the Greeks would have a chance to forge their own path.

 

Or maybe the EU core could wake up to the fact that the Greek debt is unsustainable and offer something a lot more favourable??? Problem there is the rest of the PIIGS - they are gonna want the same sooner or later.

 

---------- Post added 05-07-2015 at 21:46 ----------

 

What leads you to say that the EU/ECB has lost the plot?

 

You're not one of those people who thinks that the bondholders should be burned and the Troika should just write off some or all of the debt and loan afresh, are you?

 

Greece conned its way into the EZ, in the face of German opposition, which was misrepresented by Greek media at the time as Germany's lingering far-right tendencies. Greece paid its debts to private lenders consistently throughout the period from 1974 onwards, right up until 2012 when it got a 53.5% haircut, which couldn't have been negotiated without the Troika. There was no indication whatsoever that Greece was going to default on its debts.

 

The rest of the eurozone helped Greece when nobody else would, loaned Greece money on terms it couldn't have dreamed of getting from commercial lenders, used its clout to get Greece a €110 billion haircut on its debts, negotiated with Syriza for the better part of 5 months (even though Draghi & Co. could have legitimately kept to the 2012 deal and left it at that)...yet somehow the EU and the ECB are bad guys who are being mean to Greece?

 

I'm hoping that, come Monday, after a "Oxi" vote, Germany announces that they're having a referendum about whether they should accept Greece's proposal. With a month's notice, to fully respect normative democratic processes.

 

The events of today.

 

When a battered old man is on the floor and surrounded by thugs, then once in a while that battered old man gets up and fights back.

[tzijlstra]

Well done to the Greek people.

 

Now we (and they) will see just how the EU core is willing to puniush the Greek population for (in the words of one poster on here) not having elected a 'compliant government'. If I was Greek leader I'd be on the phone tonight to the Russians and Chinese to get some leverage.

 

The bailout terms were harsh. They offered nothing more than a generation of struggling to meet debt obligations, of failing services, economic depression and the highest youth unemployment in most of Europe. The non-bailout alternative may be worse short-term but at least the Greeks would have a chance to forge their own path.

 

Or maybe the EU core could wake up to the fact that the Greek debt is unsustainable and offer something a lot more favourable??? Problem there is the rest of the PIIGS - they are gonna want the same sooner or later.

 

---------- Post added 05-07-2015 at 21:46 ----------

 

 

The events of today.

 

When a battered old man is on the floor and surrounded by thugs, then once in a while that battered old man gets up and fights back.

 

Asking for a bail-out was harsh. The battered man is dying on his feet now because in his nightmare he was being assaulted by thugs so he lashed out. Turns out they weren't thugs, they were paramedics trying to safe his life.

[sedith]

Glad I'm not going on holiday there! Medical supplies dwindling, banks running out of money, fuel shortages, airports closing because they have run out of money, power cuts, its not going to be a safe place to be. Once the emergency services workers fail to get paid and refuse to work anarchy will prevail. Back to square one when the rest of Europe have to go in and sort it all out.

[E-Man Groovin]

Asking for a bail-out was harsh. The battered man is dying on his feet now because in his nightmare he was being assaulted by thugs so he lashed out. Turns out they weren't thugs, they were paramedics trying to safe his life.

 

Leave your prejudices at the door and watch this:

 

Your paramedics don't have the best interests of the patient at heart.

[Guest sibon]

Glad I'm not going on holiday there! Medical supplies dwindling, banks running out of money, fuel shortages, airports closing because they have run out of money, power cuts, its not going to be a safe place to be. Once the emergency services workers fail to get paid and refuse to work anarchy will prevail. Back to square one when the rest of Europe have to go in and sort it all out.

 

Or they could print the new Drachma. Use their considerable natural resources wisely and suck up to Putin.

 

That would seriously annoy Angela Merkel:D

[I1L2T3]

Asking for a bail-out was harsh. The battered man is dying on his feet now because in his nightmare he was being assaulted by thugs so he lashed out. Turns out they weren't thugs, they were paramedics trying to safe his life.

 

You could not have it more wrong. The 'paramedics' are only trying to save themselves.

 

Effectively the Greek people are being asked to spend the next generation paying for the mistakes made in the EU core. The same theme is played out in all the PIIGS to some extent. When the peripheries start to unwind then the problems creep closer to the core.

 

90%+ of any new bailout money was going straight to the banks anyway to make them good. The Greek people were to suffer yet more austerity and economic depression until the next time they couldn't pay. Then it would be more of the same, further and further into the abyss, bullied every step of the way by the troika.

 

You can't flog a dead horse as they say..... but the troika is having a bloody good go

 

---------- Post added 05-07-2015 at 23:30 ----------

 

Glad I'm not going on holiday there! Medical supplies dwindling, banks running out of money, fuel shortages, airports closing because they have run out of money, power cuts, its not going to be a safe place to be. Once the emergency services workers fail to get paid and refuse to work anarchy will prevail. Back to square one when the rest of Europe have to go in and sort it all out.

 

There will not be anarchy in Greece.

 

The EU will not have any choice but to support the country. Seriously, can you envisage a situation while we sit back and watch them melt down and do nothing to help?

[tzijlstra]

Leave your prejudices at the door and watch this:

 

Your paramedics don't have the best interests of the patient at heart.

 

You could not have it more wrong. The 'paramedics' are only trying to save themselves.

 

Effectively the Greek people are being asked to spend the next generation paying for the mistakes made in the EU core. The same theme is played out in all the PIIGS to some extent. When the peripheries start to unwind then the problems creep closer to the core.

 

90%+ of any new bailout money was going straight to the banks anyway to make them good. The Greek people were to suffer yet more austerity and economic depression until the next time they couldn't pay. Then it would be more of the same, further and further into the abyss, bullied every step of the way by the troika.

 

You can't flog a dead horse as they say..... but the troika is having a bloody good go

 

---------- Post added 05-07-2015 at 23:30 ----------

 

 

There will not be anarchy in Greece.

 

The EU will not have any choice but to support the country. Seriously, can you envisage a situation while we sit back and watch them melt down and do nothing to help?

 

What you both, Varoufakis and many Greek people are forgetting, conveniently, is WHY Greece is in this situation. It isn't anything to do with Europe or the Euro, it is to do with years of spending far more than they had.

 

All of this smacks of someone going to the courts and saying: it isn't my fault I went bankrupt, it is because the lenders kept giving me money. And that is after in 2014 the economy was growing and than clipped again because the Greeks voted in Syriza. Self-determination is lovely, except when you let turkey's vote on what's for Christmas-dinner.

Edited July 6, 2015 by tzijlstra