What is Trolling

[Cyclone]

The world has moved on Cyclone, you have no idea... because most of it is undercover and they don't want you to know about it.

 

That's why Edward Snowden and Julian Assange are so important. A lot of it is not just about controlling terrorists and the military, but about controlling you.

 

Yes, I'm sure. But YOU have it all figured out.

 

---------- Post added 22-03-2015 at 10:11 ----------

 

Yes, many countries have teams and teams of them, working in offices all over the world. Exactly how many is unknown. Many of them are private contractors. According to information leaked by Edward Snowdon, GCHQ and the NSA have created custom software that allows them amongst other things, to control entire armies of sock puppets and post in many places at once. This information has been widely reported in the mainstream press.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks

 

http://www.wired.com/2009/01/usaf-blog-respo/

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4655196.stm

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1830500.stm

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/14/poll_trolls_script_sock_puppets_manipulate_muppets/

 

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=6ef12558b44258382452fcf02942396a&tab=core&_cview=0

 

...and more

 

http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/04/18/military-sock-puppets-nsa-trolls-cia-shills/

 

Did you read the first article you linked?

 

is developing

That's not "developed", it's not functional yet.

 

In the case of the US program you found, it's not allowed to be used domestically

He said none of the interventions would be in English, as it would be unlawful to "address US audiences" with such technology, and any English-language use of social media by Centcom was always clearly attributed. The languages in which the interventions are conducted include Arabic, Farsi, Urdu and Pashto.

OEV is seen by senior US commanders as a vital counter-terrorism and counter-radicalisation programme.

Gen Mattis said: "OEV seeks to disrupt recruitment and training of suicide bombers; deny safe havens for our adversaries; and counter extremist ideology and propaganda."

 

Not at all what was being claimed.

[Anna B]

Yes, I'm sure. But YOU have it all figured out.

 

---------- Post added 22-03-2015 at 10:11 ----------

 

 

Did you read the first article you linked?

 

 

That's not "developed", it's not functional yet.

 

In the case of the US program you found, it's not allowed to be used domestically

 

 

 

Not at all what was being claimed.

 

And you believe them? ...Really?

[rinzwind]

Yes, I'm sure. But YOU have it all figured out.

 

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the attack the messenger ploy.

 

http://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/the-25-rules-of-disinformation/

 

Did you read the first article you linked?

 

Yes. I've also read many other articles covering the same or a similar story. These were the first mainstream sources I found with a quick Google that related specifically to what I was saying.

 

That's not "developed", it's not functional yet.

 

That article was written 4 years ago. That's a long time in software engineering and there have been many developments since then.

 

Disinfo rule number 4 - Use a straw man.

 

Find or create a seeming element of your opponent’s argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.

 

http://theunboundedspirit.com/25-ways-to-hide-truth-the-art-of-disinformation/

 

In the case of the US program you found, it's not allowed to be used domestically

 

The UK used to spy on the Americans and the Americans used to spy on the UK. The intelligence agencies would then share the data about each others citizens. They were doing that back in the days of Echelon and it was unlawful back then. We've all heard their excuses for breaking the law and who knows what law, if any, people like Joel Harding are operating under now. Remember they are not allowed to torture people in black sites, sell weapons or drugs to terrorists, rig the stock markets or abuse children either. What exactly is your point?

 

Your disinformation tactic here is a classic "Non sequitur" (Latin for "it does not follow") that is your conclusion does not logically follow your premise. Just because something is not allowed does not mean they are not doing it.

 

In this case it also happens to be a documented fact.

 

http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-disruption.pdf

 

http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-online-deception.pdf

 

Not at all what was being claimed.

 

No, it is exactly what is being claimed. Breaking down General Mattis statement. Bear in mind this is the bit you've quoted out of all the information I have provided, presumably because it's the bit that works best for you.

 

OEV is seen by senior US commanders as a vital counter-terrorism and counter-radicalisation programme.

 

I've highlighted counter radicalisation because it's the key word in this sentence. How do they define what is radical? How do they define which radical ideas are positive and which ones are negative. Is our definition of a "radical" the same as General Mattis? What if someone is just a bit radical, do you counter them before they get even more radical? Where is the line? Exactly how radical am I allowed to be? Also precisely how do you use sock puppets to counter radicalisation? By telling lies?

 

Counter-radicalisation is a phrase they made up that is vague enough to be applied to just about anything. They can apply it to people who simply have opinions different to theirs and use their fancy software against absolutely anyone, just like in the example of Mr Joel Harding I explained to you already.

 

Gen Mattis said: "OEV seeks to disrupt recruitment and training of suicide bombers; deny safe havens for our adversaries; and counter extremist ideology and propaganda."

 

Again I have highlighted the part that can loosely apply to just about anyone. The home secretary suggests we include "non-violent people" in the definition of extremist and David Cameron wants to throw in confirmed "conspiracy theorists," like Anna.

 

Calling out governments on their bull**** is already called extremism in the case of Snowdon or Wikileaks. Gen Mattis definition of an "extremist ideology" will be any ideology different from his. What is an extreme ideology obviously depends entirely on your point of view and can be expanded to include anybody.

 

What Gen Mattis is not saying are all the things that are officially secret about the program. They might be using their new toys and spying powers to "muck about" and nobody has any real oversight in to exactly what it is they are doing.

 

What you are doing here is troll tactic number 2. Becoming incredulous and indignant.

 

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/05/twenty-five-rules-of-disinformation.html

 

You quoted the only spokesperson for the troll team as if to say "There you are you see, a General said it was safe and we all trust Generals don't we?" You are focusing on a side issue of a statement about one particular software program and ignoring the much wider and more pertinent issue of domestic information operations.

 

I think it's fair to assume General Mattis wants you to like the software he has made and would rather not be sent to prison for using it on you.

Edited March 22, 2015 by rinzwind

[RonJeremy]

troll v., n.

 

1. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban]

 

Troll' is a frequently used word on the internet, They have come a long way since the humble beginnings described above. It wasn't long before the rich and powerful realized they could use the jokers techniques for their own ends. When I call someone a troll I'm referring to a paid, counter-revolutionary disinformation agent or propagandist.

 

A troll is basically one who posts messages intended to contradict, insult and provoke with a view to closing down a discussion board and preventing it from being used to effectively organize. Anyone can be a troll but the worst kind are paid by governments and corporations to counter negative public opinion about them.

 

Trolls work in groups and often have an army of sock puppets (fake accounts). There are various techniques they employ to prevent meaningful discussion taking place. I have linked to them previously on this forum but I will share the links again here for simplicity. This is not an exhaustive list;

 

http://pastebin.com/irj4Fyd5

http://www.crazyboy.com/fravia/searchlores.org/schopeng.htm

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/disinformation-how-it-works

http://www.brasscheck.com/martin.html

 

More info can be found here;

 

http://www.crazyboy.com/fravia/searchlores.org/trolls.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anna is absolutely correct and many of these rumours have been confirmed as true by the Edward Snowdon revelations. I suspect Ronjeremy and Penistone999 are both perfectly aware of that.

 

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/

 

The idea that government paid trolls are a conspiracy theory is utter nonsense. Government trolls are very real indeed. The government refers to them as Information operations agents and the United Kingdom just converted the 77th brigade of the British army in to "1500 cyber warriors." Their stated aim is to "control the narrative" in the current information war. IO Operations are defined by the US Army and include the fields of psychological operations and military deception.

 

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/03/01/paid-govt-and-corporate-internet-trolls-are-real/

 

http://metro.co.uk/2015/02/01/british-army-forms-new-brigade-to-combat-social-media-warfare-5044957/

 

Trolling is a very serious threat to free and open speech on the internet. The following article describes an American "Troll Boss" who is currently operating out of Ukraine.

 

http://kickass-cookies.co.uk/can-the-ukrainian-government-target-americans-in-the-us/

 

In sum, it describes how a Mr Joel Harding is tasked with disrupting anti Ukraine propaganda. The new Ministry of Information Policy in Ukraine forbids journalists to write anything that is critical of the government policy. Joel regards anything that disagrees with him as "enemy propaganda" or worse yet Russian "active measures." His job is to disrupt, deny, degrade, deceive, corrupt, usurp or destroy that information.

 

Since the Ukraine government is constantly telling fibs this means that Joel regards anybody who is actually telling the truth as a legitimate target, regardless of which country they are based in. Private citizen Joel Harding has created a private foreign IO army which today is over 40,000 strong with the current objective of destroying publications, journalists, and people that “he deems” as supporting Russian propaganda.

 

Excellent - when can I expect the honey trap? I'm looking forward to that

[Longcol]

Thankyou for that Rinzwind.

 

I've heard of government trolls being used to pass misinformation etc as well as disrupting uncomfortable, embarrassing anti-government threads, but you have linked clearly to the methodology used. Very interesting and most informative. And once you know, relatively easy to spot.

 

In the light of recent revelations about government, I'm surprised anybody still thinks they would not be capable of it, particularly in Britain where we are probably the most surveyed and monitored nations in the world.

 

So do you think there are any "government trolls" on SF?

 

BTW I thought anyone paid by the government to post on forums was a "shill" according to most conspiracy theorists

[Anna B]

So do you think there are any "government trolls" on SF?

 

BTW I thought anyone paid by the government to post on forums was a "shill" according to most conspiracy theorists

 

Don't know.

 

Never heard of a 'shill.'

 

Am I a 'conspiracy theorist' just because I believe things you don't?

Or to be more accurate, entertain possibilities about things you don't?

[rinzwind]

So do you think there are any "government trolls" on SF?

 

Yes.

 

BTW I thought anyone paid by the government to post on forums was a "shill" according to most conspiracy theorists

 

If you had read my links you would know that a shill is one who posts messages as a spokesperson or "front" for an unseen group or organization, usually at odds to the topics being discussed. It does not preclude one from also being a troll and the descriptions can often be used synonymously.

Edited March 22, 2015 by rinzwind

[RonJeremy]

Yes.

 

 

 

If you had read my links you would know that a shill is one who posts messages as a spokesperson or "front" for an unseen group or organization, usually at odds to the topics being discussed. It does not preclude one from also being a troll and the descriptions can often be used synonymously.

 

Name names? This could be interesting...

[Longcol]

Don't know.

 

Never heard of a 'shill.'

 

Am I a 'conspiracy theorist' just because I believe things you don't?

Or to be more accurate, entertain possibilities about things you don't?

 

You have lived a very sheltered on-line life if you've never encountered "shill" - some "truth seekers" on here used to use the term to describe anyone who argued againsts 9/11, 7/7, HAARP, Chemtrail, Hollie Greig etc "conspiracies".

 

I use CT to describe people who come to a conclusion first then try to make the evidence fit - or point out anomolies as if these disproved the whole story.

 

I've probably entertained more possibilities in life than most people

 

---------- Post added 22-03-2015 at 17:35 ----------

 

Name names? This could be interesting...

 

And entirely inaccurate I would guess

[rinzwind]

Name names? This could be interesting...

 

If I said a load of names it would just be unfair on those people without more proof. Maybe I am the troll, filling your heads with spurious disinformation about how to spot disinformation.