Why aren't football fans doing more to tackle extremism?

[esme]

Mod Note

 

Kindly debate the topic without getting personal please

[Bounce]

Racism exists in all forms by all races - get over it,i bet these stupid chelsea fans will have got your SF pulse racing with excitement, really is this the best you can do? Sad sad sad existence if this is the best you can do

Racism will never go away white on black - black on white and so on!!

 

I have encountered much worse racism while growing up in the UK than this Chelsea fans episode, so hardly! What do you mean by best I can do? It's a legitimate topic of discussion which has made the news recently. It seems that in most of these cases the majority of fans do not intervene to stop the racists. I was posing the question as to why not? Your response has been black and brown people can be racist as well which has nothing to do with the question. So I should actually be asking you if this is the best you can do?

[bowie1867]

I have encountered much worse racism while growing up in the UK than this Chelsea fans episode, so hardly! What do you mean by best I can do? It's a legitimate topic of discussion which has made the news recently. It seems that in most of these cases the majority of fans do not intervene to stop the racists. I was posing the question as to why not? Your response has been black and brown people can be racist as well which has nothing to do with the question. So I should actually be asking you if this is the best you can do?

 

Touchy touchy ...fact is things worse than what the chelsea fans did happen everday in places like page hall and guess what? It doesn't even make The Star any more

Its football though and more than that its Chelsea so everything gets magnified X 1000.... ps i thought extremists (which is in your title) planned mass casualty/murders throw in a few decapitations plus a bit of pyromania? How can you compare extremists and a bit of name calling from some drunk yobs?

[milquetoast1]

At least football, the clubs and the sensible fans, are not in denial about the problem. You won't hear a football fan claim that those racist fans were planted by the CIA or Mossad.

 

Football has taken ownership of the problem, fans have been banned and the problem is much better than it was 25 years ago.

 

In comparison I would like the Muslim community to take ownership of their problem by admitting that hate preachers like Haitham Haddad are racists, and telling them to naff off. Instead it seems that too many are willing to invite them to visit their mosques to speak to adoring fans.

[Dark Night]

It's the type of so called fans you get today.

These people are not really football fans.

They are a result of cheque book management.

Real fans are a thing of the past just like genuine home grown talent is

These people demand success at any price.

Some teams are loaded with overseas players, Bought success.

As shallow as the so called fans of football.

[milquetoast1]

With recent news reports of football fans stopping a black man from boarding a metro train in Paris and singing racially abusive chants at people in St Pancras International, the question arises as to what other fans were doing about it?

 

We know that this racist extremism has been a part of football in England and across Europe for many decades. If these extremists are a small minority and the vast majority of fans are not racist then surely they should be challenging the extremists when they become racist in large groupings of football fans? Many a time we find the racists going unchallenged by other supporters of the same team. Why is this?

 

The allegation is often made against Muslims even though the extremists don't have much to do with mainstream Mosques or Muslim gatherings so its difficult to see what the ordinary Muslim could do about it.

 

In instances like Paris and St Pancras it's very clear what can be done. The majority intervening to stop the minority. So why isn't it done?

 

Just been talking about this with my dad, who would call himself a secular Muslim.

 

What Bounce is clearly trying to do is wave away any responsibility for the problem of Muslim extremists by comparing them to the problem of racist football fans. Now anybody with a brain will know that Bounce, or the vast majority of individual Muslims, are no more to blame for Muslim extremists than individual football fans are for the racist views of other fans.

 

When it comes to the Muslim community and the football community however, the comparison fails.

 

Some football fans have been identified as being racist, and the football community has excommunicated them.

 

Some Muslim preachers have been identified as being racist, and bigoted, and they are being welcomed at mosques and university Islamic societies.

 

My dad reminded me that extremist preacher Muhammad Salah is touring the UK at the moment. He has said that if a Muslim woman marries a Christian man this is worse than adultery, and she leaves Islam. He has said that apostates from Islam should be killed.

 

My dad also reminded me, with a despairing shrug of his shoulders, that extremist preacher Haitham al-Haddad has been invited to the UK. Here is a man who preaches hatred against non-Muslims and homosexuals, advocates for FGM.

 

There is an online petition to stop Haitham al-Haddad from speaking at The University of Westminster, but since I support free speech I won't be signing it.

 

But why are these people being invited? Why isn't the Muslim community following the example set by the football community and saying that racist, bigoted, homophobic, intolerant views are not welcome?

Edited February 24, 2015 by milquetoast1

[mjw47]

milquetoast1.

 

Your dad sounds a decent man and no doubt the majority of Muslims hold similar views.

 

The problem we have is that we have been hoisted by our own petard.

 

We believe in free speech, and therefore that allows bigoted lunatics to spout bile and we have to hope that anyone listening to it has the intelligence and commonsense to recognise it for what it is.

 

Unfortunately that isn't always the case.

 

The best way this could be handled would be if the Muslim community itself was to make plain it's abhorrence of the views being expressed and either refused to listen or held a counter demonstration giving their more liberal view.

 

The authorities in this country are pussyfooting around with this problem and by doing so are making it worse.

 

For instance whilst they allow in the type of hate preachers you mention they banned this clown from entering the country.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.digitalspy.co.uk%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D992936&ei=Pl3sVLr5DaWt7AaouIHgAw&usg=AFQjCNG5Ix_UxN6Vby5IYpwo_DSkgVLktg&bvm=bv.86475890,d.ZGU&cad=rja

 

His views are every bit as abhorrent and ridiculous as the extremist Muslim preachers but he is a - or was - a Christian nutter.

 

This shows massive double standards and leaves the door wide open for claims of partiality toward the Muslim community.

 

As it isn't the Muslim community itself demanding unequal treatment in this situation it comes down to the stupidity and lack of leadership by the authorities.

[milquetoast1]

I'm not going to disagree with you mjw47 ( for a change ). The problem when restricting free speech is that it's impossible to draw the line in the right place, so I would always advocate more free speech not less.

 

But I think the spotlight should be on the people who invite these hate preachers, the people who hold abhorrent views and applaud those that preach them.

 

Football fans are free to hold abhorrent views, but Chelsea did the right thing in saying people who hold them are not welcome at their club.

 

My dad despairs because there are too many people in the Muslim community welcoming people like Haitham al-Haddad rather than telling him to stay away like the football community has with the racist Chelsea fans.

[Super Hans]

Apart from the Kick it out campaign? All the banners and advertising boards at every football game? The movement to kick racism out of football is massive.

 

I've never been to a mosque but I'd be pleasantly surprised if the same amount of effort went in to kicking extremism out of Islam.

[Bounce]

Touchy touchy ...fact is things worse than what the chelsea fans did happen everday in places like page hall and guess what? It doesn't even make The Star any more

 

Oh.....what exactly happens everyday in page hall, do share with us? I know there's tension in the area between the locals and recent arrivals but I doubt very much people are being pushed of buses everyday by mobs of racist extremists chanting "We're racist and that's how we like it". There was an incident in which an Arab boy had his arm broken but it's not happening everyday and it did make the news. For the most part the problems in page hall are not to do with far right extremism but anti social behavior.

 

Its football though and more than that its Chelsea so everything gets magnified X 1000.... ps i thought extremists (which is in your title) planned mass casualty/murders throw in a few decapitations plus a bit of pyromania? How can you compare extremists and a bit of name calling from some drunk yobs?

 

Bit of name calling by some drunk yobs? How about pushing someone of a train due to their race while chanting proud to be racist slogans. Far right extremism has committed all of the extremist acts you have mentioned. In this instance it was pushing someone of a train when its a bomb there's nothing much anyone can do about it. In this case there was something which could be done just as with the racist attack by Man U fans on the metro-link in Manchester while 200 other fans stood by watching.

 

So why is it that the majority of fans do not intervene to stop the minority of racist extremists? A question you still haven't answered.

 

---------- Post added 24-02-2015 at 20:11 ----------

 

At least football, the clubs and the sensible fans, are not in denial about the problem. You won't hear a football fan claim that those racist fans were planted by the CIA or Mossad.

 

Football has taken ownership of the problem, fans have been banned and the problem is much better than it was 25 years ago.

 

In comparison I would like the Muslim community to take ownership of their problem by admitting that hate preachers like Haitham Haddad are racists, and telling them to naff off. Instead it seems that too many are willing to invite them to visit their mosques to speak to adoring fans.

 

CIA and Mossad have nothing much to do with football matches that's why but they have plenty to do with the the conflicts going on in the Middle East and other parts of the Muslim world. If West Ham fans and Chelsea fans start trouble are you going to say don't bring Chelsea into it? Admit that its only West Ham? Similarly if something happens in Syria are you going to say it was actually Chelsea fans who did it? Your comparison is illogical.

 

Who in the Muslim community are you talking about? What is the Muslim community to you? In the city where I grew up the Muslim population is vast and very diverse and there are many communities. The MCB and other such groups as well as Mosque leaders do exactly as FIFA and club leaders do. The East London Mosque which is one of the largest in the UK has a strict no extremism policy.

 

---------- Post added 24-02-2015 at 20:33 ----------

 

Just been talking about this with my dad, who would call himself a secular Muslim.

 

What Bounce is clearly trying to do is wave away any responsibility for the problem of Muslim extremists by comparing them to the problem of racist football fans. Now anybody with a brain will know that Bounce, or the vast majority of individual Muslims, are no more to blame for Muslim extremists than individual football fans are for the racist views of other fans.

 

When it comes to the Muslim community and the football community however, the comparison fails.

 

Some football fans have been identified as being racist, and the football community has excommunicated them.

 

Some Muslim preachers have been identified as being racist, and bigoted, and they are being welcomed at mosques and university Islamic societies.

 

My dad reminded me that extremist preacher Muhammad Salah is touring the UK at the moment. He has said that if a Muslim woman marries a Christian man this is worse than adultery, and she leaves Islam. He has said that apostates from Islam should be killed.

 

My dad also reminded me, with a despairing shrug of his shoulders, that extremist preacher Haitham al-Haddad has been invited to the UK. Here is a man who preaches hatred against non-Muslims and homosexuals, advocates for FGM.

 

There is an online petition to stop Haitham al-Haddad from speaking at The University of Westminster, but since I support free speech I won't be signing it.

 

But why are these people being invited? Why isn't the Muslim community following the example set by the football community and saying that racist, bigoted, homophobic, intolerant views are not welcome?

 

Bounce is not trying to do anything of the sort. My point is simple that if the majority of football fans are not racist which I believe they are not then why not intervene to stop the minority of extremists when incidents like Paris happen? The Muslim community is always told to do more to stop the extremists but no one has defined who the Muslim community is and what more can be done. Do you mean every single Muslim in Britain should be intervening to stop speakers from speaking in a University or Mosque. Are you for real?

 

Do you believe in Freedom of speech or not? If you do then you have to allow the views of speakers you disagree with? This is why you have not signed the petition I take it? Someone speaking in front of an audience and someone being violently racist on public transport is totally different.

 

There are groups operating in the UK who get away with extremist hatred towards Muslims such as Britain First and the EDL. The flip side of the coin Anjem Choudharys Al Muhajirun group have been banned. Why the double standards? The former leader of the EDL was recently invited to the Oxford Union to make a hate speech. UKIP are not exactly what you would call a party of tolerance and yet they are allowed to stand for election.

 

Europe has learned the lessons of history regarding the Jewish community which is why extremist hatred towards Jewish people is outlawed. All this Muslims must do more is part of the scapegoating of Muslim people in the UK.

 

---------- Post added 24-02-2015 at 20:47 ----------

 

milquetoast1.

 

Your dad sounds a decent man and no doubt the majority of Muslims hold similar views.

 

The problem we have is that we have been hoisted by our own petard.

 

We believe in free speech, and therefore that allows bigoted lunatics to spout bile and we have to hope that anyone listening to it has the intelligence and commonsense to recognise it for what it is.

 

Unfortunately that isn't always the case.

 

The best way this could be handled would be if the Muslim community itself was to make plain it's abhorrence of the views being expressed and either refused to listen or held a counter demonstration giving their more liberal view.

 

The authorities in this country are pussyfooting around with this problem and by doing so are making it worse.

 

For instance whilst they allow in the type of hate preachers you mention they banned this clown from entering the country.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.digitalspy.co.uk%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D992936&ei=Pl3sVLr5DaWt7AaouIHgAw&usg=AFQjCNG5Ix_UxN6Vby5IYpwo_DSkgVLktg&bvm=bv.86475890,d.ZGU&cad=rja

 

His views are every bit as abhorrent and ridiculous as the extremist Muslim preachers but he is a - or was - a Christian nutter.

 

This shows massive double standards and leaves the door wide open for claims of partiality toward the Muslim community.

 

As it isn't the Muslim community itself demanding unequal treatment in this situation it comes down to the stupidity and lack of leadership by the authorities.

 

Many Muslim speakers have also been banned from the UK its not only the Christian nutter who has been banned. Others like Omar Bakri have been deported and Abu Hamza is currently in jail in America. So your idea that nothing happens to Muslim extremist preachers is frankly ridiculous and totally at odds with reality. The other problem with your argument is that you assume demonstrations against extremism by Muslims do not occur. Just because you haven't heard about them doesn't mean they don't happen.

 

---------- Post added 24-02-2015 at 21:10 ----------

 

I'm not going to disagree with you mjw47 ( for a change ). The problem when restricting free speech is that it's impossible to draw the line in the right place, so I would always advocate more free speech not less.

 

But I think the spotlight should be on the people who invite these hate preachers, the people who hold abhorrent views and applaud those that preach them.

 

Football fans are free to hold abhorrent views, but Chelsea did the right thing in saying people who hold them are not welcome at their club.

 

My dad despairs because there are too many people in the Muslim community welcoming people like Haitham al-Haddad rather than telling him to stay away like the football community has with the racist Chelsea fans.

 

They weren't holding the views they were acting them out in a way which harms others.

 

Stopping people holding views whatever they might be is fascism.

 

Who are the too many people in the Muslim community? Also define Muslim community? Is Haitham al-Haddad calling for the murder of homosexuals on the streets of the UK? If not, then on what justification should he be banned?

Edited February 24, 2015 by Bounce