Sheffield City Council meeting - An important Invitation

[Cyclone]

I think the only conclusion we can draw from this thread is that rinzwind has no experience or interaction with anyone working at this kind of level in any organisation anywhere.

[Jonny5]

I think the only conclusion we can draw from this thread is that rinzwind has no experience or interaction with anyone working at this kind of level in any organisation anywhere.

Doesn't make him wrong. I'm wondering why you are so determined to shut him down. Who is it that you work for again? Or is this just another of those OCD threads where you have to have the last word? Edited March 13, 2015 by Jonny5

[Cyclone]

I'm not determined to "shut him up" at all, I just think he's totally and completely wrong.

 

I'm self employed, I don't and have never worked for the council. I did work through a 3rd party for the Home Office once, and through another 3rd party for the MOD. But that makes no difference to my opinion on this thread.

 

Accusing people of wanting to have the last word always seems like a tactic to try to force them to not reply. A transparent and obvious tactic though.

[green]

I repeat my much earlier post.

 

Go & read the Casey Rotherham report. If you have had any dealings with any officers or councillors within Sheffield you will struggle to cite the same things are not happening in Sheffield.

 

I would personally love to see 5 commissioners come into Sheffield, sweep out the old councillors and officers and get our governance in order in this city.

 

This city desperately needs it, as the leaders we have now are worse than abysmal.

[rinzwind]

Originally Posted by rinzwind View Post

The two main objections seem to be (a) we would have difficulty recruiting the executives and (b) we would have difficulty retaining the executives.

 

My view is that;

 

(a) The only people we will have difficulty recruiting are those who's salary demands are unreasonable. More suitable people don't get promoted up the hierarchy than do, so companies and organisations are awash with competent people. Senior positions are very scarce. People are willing to work very hard for a chance at a senior position. Often suitable people are not promoted for ideological reasons. Often the people who are promoted are not actually the most suitable.

I think we established that these were the going rate though since it's across the country?

Yes. My comment implies therefore that the "going rate" is unreasonable. The going rate does nothing to change any of the points above.

 

(b) The only people we will have difficulty retaining are those people that care more about their own wallets than they do about Sheffield. They are exactly the kind of people we want to avoid. New executives should be selected in large part based on a genuine commitment to Sheffield. Suitable candidates wouldn't want to give up a senior position in Sheffield's Council unless it was good for the city to do so. Various incentives to stick around can also be woven in to any contract.

 

bold, what are you basing this on though?

 

The fact that they do not think the going rate is unreasonable. In a time of austerity everybody must be prepared to tighten their belt. Anybody that won't do the same job for a lower income just isn't pulling their weight. The job of a Sheffield council executive is a very important one. Our council executives would rather make Sheffielders suffer by forcing them to find suitable replacements rather than do their share of belt tightening.

 

Underlined, Do you know they aren't now?

 

Yes, as evidenced by the fact that they will not work in an highly prestigious position within the council that gives them an opportunity to greatly influence the future of the city without demanding an unreasonable rate of pay during a time of serious austerity. If they are willing to take the paycut and stick around then I will accept that they can be shown to have a genuine commitment to Sheffield already.

Furthermore the more Sheffielders that gain £50k salaries within the city and then get headhunted for even higher paid executive roles elsewhere, the better. That is what our education system is all about.

How will that help the city if people who are 'dedicated' and importantly, good! get head-hunted and go somewhere else for better money? We will just be an easy pickings ground for other places in the country. We would just be the part of the education system with no stability at all if jobs keep coming and going every time someone goes.

If other people want to throw money at the problem then let them. Competing against other organisations is not a cost effective solution.

 

What will help the city is (a) an extensive and robust training program that ensures the council never lacks quality candidates for key leadership roles. That is something we should already have . (b) Head hunters will only be interested in candidates that have proven themselves in leadership roles. That means in every case that Sheffield would have benefitted from that proof. © We would save over a million pounds a year. (d) A pay cap for executives will ensure that new council staff have reasonable expectations and this will keep costs down for the forseeable future. (e) Adressing a higher staff turnover will require the council to adopt organisational systems that are more flexible and less dependant on key individuals. (f) Executives may leave for other Sheffield companies.

 

I think there is far more talent than there are leadership roles. I am still not convinced the staff turnover will raise significantly at all. I do not think every organisation in the country will rush to hire Sheffield city council executives. There aren't enough £50K positions available to give one to every talented individual in Sheffield that would be suitable. I think the idea that everybody will be in a rush to leave for better paid positions is scaremongering. I think the risk can be significantly reduced by factoring out people who are motivated by high salaries during candidate selection.

 

A modest staff turnover is already expected by the council. How much higher do you expect it would be in those 37 executive roles and why do you think that?

 

You never answered this question even though it is key to your argument.

 

We already have inappropriate people in the jobs.

You avoided addressing this

 

You have no way of determining what the outcome of a recruitment campaign would be in advance. The manner it was conducted would influence the outcome.

 

....and this

 

Again you don't know what you will find until you look. I expect they will find an abundance of dedicated and intelligent people. I think that the greatest natural resource in Sheffield is it's people.

 

Of course there are, they are in any town or city, but doesn't mean they could run the city. I suspect it isn't as easy as people make out. £50k is probably only 4 times more than someone working full-time on NMW. You might as well try and become a manager in a supermarket and earn the same for far less stress/hassle and responsibility for far fewer people

Of course the people of Sheffield can run the city! Who else is going to run it? I suspect it isn't as hard as people make out. Apparently you only need to get seven things right out of ten.

 

You have no idea how much stress any individual will be under when faced with a particular set of circumstances. How stressful something seems depends on the individual. Working in a supermarket is not far less stress or hassle than working as a council executive. When you have bills to pay, kids to feed and you need to meet your targets then that can be every bit as stressful as anything a council executive faces. The same is true in one way or another for plenty of other jobs.

 

The supermarket manager doesn't have the £100k+ salary to fall back on. You have to work more or less the same amount of time. The supermarket manager doesn't have the prestige or influence or same opportunity for job satisfaction. What's stressful is not having enough money coming in and also having people think you are inferior just because you are a supermarket manager and they are a council executive.

 

Also the existing leadership are incapable of doing the job and cost us a lot more.

 

How much do you know about what their day to day duties are? And what decisions have to be made?

 

Everything I need to know as a concerned citizen. It says plenty about it on the councils website. Are you suggesting the council does not provide enough information to the public for them to be able to determine if their leaders are operating effectively and spending their money wisely?

 

Constitution : http://sheffielddemocracy.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s15700/Full%20Constitution%20October%202014.pdf

 

Code of Governance : https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/dms/scc/management/corporate-communications/documents/government-politics-admin/governance/Code-of-Corporate-Governance/Code%20of%20Corporate%20Governance.doc

 

Annual Governance Statement : https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/dms/scc/management/corporate-communications/documents/government-politics-admin/governance/Annual-Governance-Statement-2013-14/Annual%20Governance%20Statement%202013-14.pdf

 

Leaders Scheme of Delegation : http://sheffielddemocracy.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s16128/November%202014.pdf

 

Resources Scheme of Delegation : http://sheffielddemocracy.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s16928/Resources%20Scheme%20of%20Delegation.pdf

 

On page 1 you hadn't even established what they earned, let alone know what they do.

 

On page one we were discussing councilors pay, not executives. I've certainly started paying much closer attention to the executive duties recently. I've known for some time they are not performing their duties adequately as evidenced by the number and sheer scale of the ****-ups and by the dissatisfaction that is rife amongst Sheffielders. I don't need to be able to do the job myself to suggest they are doing it wrong or to suggest that they are overpaid.

 

Comments by *_ash_* still in red. My retort in blue.

 

---------- Post added 13-03-2015 at 19:47 ----------

 

I think the only conclusion we can draw from this thread is that rinzwind has no experience or interaction with anyone working at this kind of level in any organisation anywhere.

 

The only level of experience it seems you would accept is that of the people already earning extreme executive salaries or their close associates.

 

I would argue that these people have a vested interest in keeping their salaries high and are therefore unreliable.

 

I don't need to have any level of experience to be right. I also don't need any level of experience to make valid criticisms or suggest valid alternatives.

 

I'm not determined to "shut him up" at all, I just think he's totally and completely wrong.

 

I think you are determined to shut me and everybody else up. It isn't the first time you have defended the council. It's no good just saying I am wrong. You need to have valid objections to my proposal. So far your objections have all been invalid.

 

I'm self employed, I don't and have never worked for the council. I did work through a 3rd party for the Home Office once, and through another 3rd party for the MOD. But that makes no difference to my opinion on this thread.

 

Why mention it then?

 

Troll disinformation technique number 8

 

Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and simply say it isn’t so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.

 

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/05/twenty-five-rules-of-disinformation.html

 

Accusing people of wanting to have the last word always seems like a tactic to try to force them to not reply. A transparent and obvious tactic though.

 

As obvious and transparent as yours?

Edited March 13, 2015 by rinzwind

[*_ash_*]

Comments by *_ash_* still in red. My retort in blue.

 

---------- Post added 13-03-2015 at 19:47 ----------

 

 

 

I think Rinz, that it is fair that I'm allowed more time to quote that

 

(tbf, I sort of knew that my cheap quick time response would mean more time to respond to if you quoted it in the same way)

 

 

---------- Post added 14-03-2015 at 02:33 ----------

 

I can answer this bit though:

 

You never answered this question even though it is key to your argument.

 

We already have inappropriate people in the jobs.

 

You avoided addressing this

 

You have no way of determining what the outcome of a recruitment campaign would be in advance. The manner it was conducted would influence the outcome.

....and this

 

Purples:

 

These were remnants of Cyclones part of the quote that weren't addressed to me.

 

I just answered the last part because I thought that Cyclone's response mirrored mine on this section.

Edited March 14, 2015 by *_ash_*

[rinzwind]

I think Rinz, that it is fair that I'm allowed more time to quote that

 

Take all the time you need. I'd rather read something insightful than rushed.

 

I can answer this bit though:

 

You never answered this question even though it is key to your argument.:

 

These were remnants of Cyclones part of the quote that weren't addressed to me.

 

I just answered the last part because I thought that Cyclone's response mirrored mine on this section.

 

I was actually asking you the question; "A modest staff turnover is already expected by the council. How much higher do you expect it would be in those 37 executive roles and why do you think that?"

Edited March 14, 2015 by rinzwind

[Cllr Rob]

A flavour of the Council meeting itself can seen on our video here.

 

http://sheffieldgreenparty.org.uk/2015/03/13/green-councillors-propose-a-budget-for-jobs-and-to-protect-services/

 

Part of our budget was reduce the pay ratio between the highest and lowest paid council workers to 10:1

[rinzwind]

A flavour of the Council meeting itself can seen on our video here.

 

http://sheffieldgreenparty.org.uk/2015/03/13/green-councillors-propose-a-budget-for-jobs-and-to-protect-services/

 

Part of our budget was reduce the pay ratio between the highest and lowest paid council workers to 10:1

 

This was the literally the best bit of the budget meeting. These were some of the only councilors in my view that were actually trying to defend Sheffield people at all.

 

As you can hear, it's quite noisy in there with more people talking than listening. It's a shame the camera angle doesn't show all the jostling and moving about and general lack of interest in the proceedings.

 

The Green Party proposal makes a lot of sense and is exactly the kind of thing I think Sheffielders should be demanding.

[Cyclone]

Comments by *_ash_* still in red. My retort in blue.

 

---------- Post added 13-03-2015 at 19:47 ----------

 

 

The only level of experience it seems you would accept is that of the people already earning extreme executive salaries or their close associates.

 

I would argue that these people have a vested interest in keeping their salaries high and are therefore unreliable.

 

I don't need to have any level of experience to be right. I also don't need any level of experience to make valid criticisms or suggest valid alternatives.

You don't NEED any level of experience, but having some increases the likelihood of being right considerably.

 

 

 

I think you are determined to shut me and everybody else up. It isn't the first time you have defended the council. It's no good just saying I am wrong. You need to have valid objections to my proposal. So far your objections have all been invalid.

I'm determined to have an opinion, which happens to be different to yours and you're trying very hard to shout me down.

 

 

Why mention it then?

 

Troll disinformation technique number 8

 

Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and simply say it isn’t so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.

Johnny5 mentioned it. He accused me of working for the council.

Now you don't like it when I explain that I'm self employed?

Perhaps you could try to actually read the thread and see the context of the responses?

 

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/05/twenty-five-rules-of-disinformation.html

 

 

 

As obvious and transparent as yours?

 

Mine? The tactic of disagreeing with you, and stating why.

Reasons that you have (with no supporting logic) declared to be invalid.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Cyclone