Sheffield City Council meeting - An important Invitation

[rinzwind]

Your entire argument is based on wishful thinking. That's why I suggest that a lack of experience is more likely to make you wrong.

 

Which point specifically is wishful thinking? You're doing that thing again where you say I'm wrong but you don't say why.

 

You admitted you don't have any experience. According to you that makes you more likely to be wrong than me.

 

You wish you could justify those egregious salaries but you can't. John Mothersole is not worth £220k a year and he never was.

 

---------- Post added 17-03-2015 at 19:07 ----------

 

In the case of Council Tax it is governed by the Local Government Finance Act 1992.

 

I do not voluntarily give up my property to the council. I only pay it because I am threatened with force and violence if I do not.

 

The thieves can present whatever pieces of paper they like but that's all they are. Pieces of paper. None of them change the fact that they are stealing.

Edited March 17, 2015 by rinzwind

[Longcol]

 

I do not voluntarily give up my property to the council. I only pay it because I am threatened with force and violence if I do not.

 

The thieves can present whatever pieces of paper they like but that's all they are. pieces of paper. None of them change the fact that they are stealing.

 

Nobody is pretending council tax is voluntary - it's a law. But stealing

 

Ultimately all laws are backed up by the threat of force (and use of, usually as the last resort).

 

Societies have operated like this for a few thousand years - get used to it.

[Cyclone]

Which point specifically is wishful thinking? You're doing that thing again where you say I'm wrong but you don't say why.

The part where you could get competent people to do the job for less than the job currently pays.

 

You admitted you don't have any experience. According to you that makes you more likely to be wrong than me.

I believe I said that I didn't work for the council. I didn't say what I do.

You on the other hand said that you don't work with people who run large departments or businesses.

 

You wish you could justify those egregious salaries but you can't. John Mothersole is not worth £220k a year and he never was.

How have you assessed the amount the job should pay?

I do not voluntarily give up my property to the council. I only pay it because I am threatened with force and violence if I do not.

 

The thieves can present whatever pieces of paper they like but that's all they are. pieces of paper. None of them change the fact that they are stealing.

 

I bet you're quite happy to use the services that the council provide though.

[rinzwind]

The part where you could get competent people to do the job for less than the job currently pays.

 

The people currently in the job are not competent. Why wouldn't you be able to find hundreds of competent people to do the job for less? You seem to be talking utter nonsense. What is it you think the chief executive does that is so hard that other senior executives or an entrepreneur couldn't also do it?

 

I believe I said that I didn't work for the council. I didn't say what I do.

 

Earlier you said you didn't have the facts and you stated explicitly that your employment history was not relevant to your opinion in this thread? So now you're saying you do have facts and/or relevant employment experience?

 

You on the other hand said that you don't work with people who run large departments or businesses.

 

I never said anything like that. Quote me if you can. I said the exact opposite.

 

How have you assessed the amount the job should pay?

 

There is no definitive answer to how much a job should pay. There are as many different ways of assessing it as you can think of. The existing assessors are copying pay scales in the private sector. I think this is a mistake. The private sector is not comparable to the public sector. Pay scales in the private sector are not formulated for the benefit of the customer but for the shareholders.

 

I am basing my own assessment on the level of competence shown by people I know who earn under £50k and the level of incompetence I have seen from people who earn over £50k. I know lots of people who hold themselves to a much higher standard than John Mothersole and yet are paid much less.

 

I am also basing my assessment on the amount of funding that is available to the council. If funding is sharply cut then executive salaries must also be cut to remain optimal. There are some wages the council simply can't afford to pay anymore.

 

I bet you're quite happy to use the services that the council provide though.

 

No, I am not at all happy using many of the services the council provides. I'd rather not pay my taxes and not use any of the services at all thank you. Lots of people feel that way. That's the only reason why taxes are not voluntary.

 

---------- Post added 18-03-2015 at 00:06 ----------

 

Nobody is pretending council tax is voluntary - it's a law. But stealing

 

Taking something without asking is stealing.

 

Ultimately all laws are backed up by the threat of force (and use of, usually as the last resort).

 

By last resort you mean if we don't pay?

 

Societies have operated like this for a few thousand years - get used to it.

 

The fact we have always done it is no justification to continue doing it. Imagine if we thought that way about slavery. Stealing is still wrong, even when you've always stolen.

Edited March 18, 2015 by rinzwind

[Longcol]

 

Taking something without asking is stealing.

 

 

No - stealing is taking something illegally. Taxation is legal.

[rinzwind]

No - stealing is taking something illegally. Taxation is legal.

 

What makes it "legal?" How does that change the immorality of the act?

[Longcol]

What makes it "legal?" How does that change the immorality of the act?

 

Legislation makes it legal.

 

The "immorality" of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 appears to be your own personal view rather than one widely shared in society.

[rinzwind]

Legislation makes it legal.

 

The "immorality" of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 appears to be your own personal view rather than one widely shared in society.

 

Perhaps you are right. I said it was a topic for another thread. I don't really want to get in to a philosophical debate about the immorality of taxation here.

 

Regardless of my own view on that subject, 37 council executives are still overpaid and under performing. I'd like to focus on that.

Edited March 18, 2015 by rinzwind

[Longcol]

Regardless of my own view on that subject, 37 council executives are still overpaid and under performing. I'd like to focus on that.

 

Again, it appears to be mainly your view that they are overpaid. I find it rather odd that you seem obsessed by £3.5 million of a £1.4 billion budget - perhaps I'm used to working with bigger numbers than you?

[rinzwind]

Again, it appears to be mainly your view that they are overpaid. I find it rather odd that you seem obsessed by £3.5 million of a £1.4 billion budget - perhaps I'm used to working with bigger numbers than you?

 

It certainly isn't just me that thinks they are overpaid. Raising council tax and giving up £2m in free money without addressing the greed of the executives is insulting to all the people of this city. I'm interested in these numbers because the executive salaries are too high and that needs to change. The council executives are taking everybody for a ride.

Edited March 18, 2015 by rinzwind