Sheffield City Council meeting - An important Invitation

[Cyclone]

I doubt that you even know what services the council provides.

 

---------- Post added 18-03-2015 at 07:35 ----------

 

The people currently in the job are not competent.

According to your own assessment. Of jobs that you don't understand.

Why wouldn't you be able to find hundreds of competent people to do the job for less?

Because anyone who could do the job, knows what the job should pay.

You seem to be talking utter nonsense. What is it you think the chief executive does that is so hard that other senior executives or an entrepreneur couldn't also do it?

People do move from senior exec positions to chief exec positions, they get a pay rise appropriate for it.

 

 

 

Earlier you said you didn't have the facts

Much like yourself.

and you stated explicitly that your employment history was not relevant to your opinion in this thread?

No, I said that I don't work for the council and said what I do.

So now you're saying you do have facts and/or relevant employment experience?

Maybe more than you do, I'm not sure.

 

 

 

I never said anything like that. Quote me if you can. I said the exact opposite.

I'll have to check later, need to go to work now.

 

 

 

There is no definitive answer to how much a job should pay. There are as many different ways of assessing it as you can think of. The existing assessors are copying pay scales in the private sector. I think this is a mistake. The private sector is not comparable to the public sector. Pay scales in the private sector are not formulated for the benefit of the customer but for the shareholders.

It HAS to be comparable, because otherwise people choose to work in the private sector instead.

 

I am basing my own assessment on the level of competence shown by people I know who earn under £50k and the level of incompetence I have seen from people who earn over £50k. I know lots of people who hold themselves to a much higher standard than John Mothersole and yet are paid much less.

I don't think you know much more about John than his name.

 

I am also basing my assessment on the amount of funding that is available to the council. If funding is sharply cut then executive salaries must also be cut to remain optimal. There are some wages the council simply can't afford to pay anymore.

The funding is huge, the budget is in the billions, and you're worrying about millions.

 

Regarding taxes, how do you suggest that communal needs be fairly paid for if people like you could opt out of taxation? Would you stop seeing the light from street lighting? Would you pay to have your bin privately collected? Would you say "tough luck" regarding the social care budget, one of the largest single council costs?

[rinzwind]

I doubt that you even know what services the council provides.

 

I doubt many people in the council could list all the services the council provides.

 

According to your own assessment. Of jobs that you don't understand.

 

I'm not arguing with you anymore. You're a troll and you're waisting everyones time by refusing to acknowledge and deal with the information people are giving you. This is not the first thread on Sheffield Forum that has been strongly critical of the council. Several posters in this thread have stated their sincere dissatisfaction with the council leadership. As far as a large proportion of Sheffield is concerned the executives incompetence has been aptly demonstrated and is no longer open to discussion. The question now is what to do about it.

 

Because anyone who could do the job, knows what the job should pay.

 

Yes. Less than £100k. The current bunch can't do the job because they don't know that.

 

People do move from senior exec positions to chief exec positions, they get a pay rise appropriate for it.

 

Senior execs already earn too much and the pay rise is inappropriate. That's according to me and anybody else that can be bothered to talk to their councilor about getting a better deal. You have not answered my question of what you think the chief exec does that is so hard.

 

Much like yourself.

 

No. Not like me. I have been digging through a significant body of documentation. Considering the impact of council policy and exploring alternatives. Scrutinizing the council like it's my job. The first thing I said to you was "don't act like we haven't done our homework because you have no idea what you are talking about."

 

Maybe more than you do, I'm not sure.

 

Well if you have any evidence that John Mothersole is doing a good job then lets see it.

 

It HAS to be comparable, because otherwise people choose to work in the private sector instead.

 

No. Only the people who care more about their own income than the well being of Sheffield will move to the private sector. You are consistently ignoring this point. Some people have different values to you. Not everybody is motivated only by the money. The people who are not motivated by money are often earning less than £50k a year and they are often very capable.

 

Assuming that individuals who seek to maximize their own incomes are the people best suited for leadership roles is turning out to be a very costly error indeed.

 

I don't think you know much more about John than his name.

 

Are we taking bets? I certainly don't know as much as I would like to know. Maybe there are some whistle blowers in the council that can help us all out.

 

The funding is huge, the budget is in the billions, and you're worrying about millions.

 

It's the difference between a council tax rise and not a council tax rise. Call it attention to detail if you like.

 

Regarding taxes, how do you suggest that communal needs be fairly paid for if people like you could opt out of taxation? Would you stop seeing the light from street lighting? Would you pay to have your bin privately collected? Would you say "tough luck" regarding the social care budget, one of the largest single council costs?

 

I do not have time to try and explain voluntarism to you. Go and read wikipedia. It's enough to say that moving towards a voluntary system of taxation is for now "pipe dream politics." It is not going to be on anyones agenda for quite some time. Sharply reducing executive pay however, will be on the agenda for next years budget if the people of Sheffield put it there.

 

For the people of Sheffield that think a sharp pay cut for the executives is exactly what the doctor ordered, now is the time to start doing something to make it happen. I certainly will be. Never mind what the troll thinks. Call your councilor and tell them you want to see a firm commitment to look at this before the next budget. Write to them or even go and see them. Tell them if they want your support they have to drastically reduce the 3.3 million in executive pay for the 37 top executives. Tell your friends, your neighbors and your colleagues to do the same. Make noise. Do whatever you can to put the councilors on notice that it's the people of Sheffield that run this city, not John Mothersole.

 

You can find your councilors contact details using this link.

 

http://sheffielddemocracy.moderngov.co.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=WARD&VW=LIST&PIC=0

Edited March 18, 2015 by rinzwind

[Cyclone]

You continue to claim that the jobs are a) overpaid, b) done badly, yet without any evidence to support either opinion.

There are multiple threads criticising the council, that doesn't support either of these opinions though, earlier on in this thread we even had to explain the difference between the employee's and the elected.

 

Trolling is something quite specific. Disagreeing with you and saying so does not count.

I'm sorry that you couldn't offer any evidence or reason to convince me of your point of view, but that's your problem, not mine, and it doesn't make me a troll.

 

---------- Post added 18-03-2015 at 15:31 ----------

 

This quote summarised your opinion well I think

 

Senior execs already earn too much and the pay rise is inappropriate. That's according to me...

[rinzwind]

You continue to claim that the jobs are a) overpaid, b) done badly, yet without any evidence to support either opinion.

 

Anna B posted a pretty good list of evidence back on page 5. I suggest you re-read her post there. I have also explained several times why the jobs are overpaid. What you are trying to do here is...

 

Troll disinformation technique number 9

 

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues with denial they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

 

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/05/twenty-five-rules-of-disinformation.html

 

 

There are multiple threads criticizing the council, that doesn't support either of these opinions though,

 

Actually many of them do.

 

earlier on in this thread we even had to explain the difference between the employee's and the elected.

 

Not to me you didn't.

 

Trolling is something quite specific. Disagreeing with you and saying so does not count.

 

People can judge for themselves.

 

I'm sorry that you couldn't offer any evidence or reason to convince me of your point of view, but that's your problem, not mine,

 

Technique Number 9 again with a touch of number 18.

 

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents.

 

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/05/twenty-five-rules-of-disinformation.html

 

and it doesn't make me a troll.

 

What makes you a troll is that you've exhibited about 5 well known trolly techniques and I've called you out on them each time.

 

This quote summarized your opinion well I think

 

Yes and you've cut my sentence in half to take it out of context. Taken in context what I am actually saying is that I'm tired of repeating myself and that it's irrelevant whether you agree with us or not.

Edited March 18, 2015 by rinzwind