How voting against the EU has implications: TTIP?

[Frederick1]

[quote=tzijlstra;

As the debate about the TTIP is raging across most EU countries, the UK is stoical as ever, unfortunately it is beginning to look like this stoicism is backfiring - UKIP, not only the biggest UK representative in the EU, but also the most stoic EU party in the world judging by their non-presence in any sort of sensible debate, is... unclear about the TTIP. In fact, they have so little opinion on it that they have no influence on it what so ever,.

 

PS: One of the biggest threats in the TTIP to the UK is that the NHS should be open to privatisation under current rules. It is only the biggest topic for 30+% of the voters, so let us not worry about that, aye?

 

Most of your post is quite correct tzijlstra except for the bit I have not deleted!

UKIP are NOT unclear about TTIP and this was spelled out at the Conference last September. They are against it and one of the reasons is in your PS - the NHS.

I have repeated time and time again, on various pages, the dangers of TTIP which Labour and Tories are backing and have been discussing with the EU for a long time - but not telling the public! What does that tell you?

 

:)

 

---------- Post added 26-03-2015 at 12:49 ----------

 

Maybe the question you should be asking is "Why has the BBC with it's mandate to 'Educate and Inform', stayed so studiously silent on the TTIP deal"??

 

For the same reason mas Labour and the Tories - EU cash!

 

 

---------- Post added 26-03-2015 at 12:56 ----------

 

It's the exact same remit as that of every other EU Member State's elected representatives at the European Parliament, and they're doing their job...So, why can't UKIP MEPs (still)? (...not that we didn't warn you about this outcome before the election, like )

 

If you voted for a UKIP MEP, time to man up and assume your choice.

 

.

 

L00b - UKIP came out completely against TTIP at their Conference last September. Have no doubt it will be in their manifesto too when all of them come out.

On repeated occasions they (and me) and warned about the dangers of this TTIP. It's certainly not good for the UK but the EU and USA will benefit enormously.

[tzijlstra]

1) UKIP are opposing TTIP in the current form so NHS & other government departments may not be included.

 

2) My bold - what you have said there is highly illogical. What you have claimed is that all the other big EU states are radically against it, but Britain being the only one not radically opposing means it is getting through. What is illogical about your statement is it assumes something will get through despite fierce opposition from France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Poland etc etc, by simple fact Britain hasn't opposed it enough.

 

Since when did Britain and our MPs become king maker on such vital decisions? Let me tell you, our MEPs are vastly out numbered, even if all our UK MEPs voted unanimously against something as not being in the UK national interest, it doesn't make any difference because all the other states can back something which is enough to force it on us despite our opposition. The idea that the vast majority of states are against TTIP but Britain, or specifically UKIP (which is the real target or your ire), will be to blame for it getting through (even though they too oppose it), is laughable.

 

UKIP are opposed? That is odd, because the UKIP spokesman for trade in October last year said he was for TTIP and privatisation of public services in the UK as a consequence of the arrangement.

 

Of course in the same month UKIP declared to be firmly against TTIP. The joy of a populist party in full action. So where do they stand on this? It is under review apparently. So whilst this is being discussed in the EU by practically everybody the biggest EU representation of the Brits are 'reviewing' their position on it. This is precisely the problem, it leaves the door open for other parties to 'review' their position whilst those that feel this should be resolved sooner rather than later are in a minority to do anything about it.

 

If you understand anything about politics you will know that issues like this need to be sorted, not left in a lurch, because someone somewhere is going to come up with a scheme to push whatever they want through, not being represented appropriately is lethal in those circumstances. The TTIP in its core is something we want, it will boost trade and secure important opportunities for business, but this particular clause is the hot iron and UKIP are choosing to let it fly around, damaging whatever it can. Carry on voting for a party that one day is for, the other day is against and then isn't so sure. It will do the UK the world of good.

 

---------- Post added 26-03-2015 at 12:57 ----------

 

UKIP are NOT unclear about TTIP and this was spelled out at the Conference last September. They are against it and one of the reasons is in your PS - the NHS.

http://www.paulnuttallmep.com/tag/ttip/

 

The last official communication on the topic that I can find - we are against it, but we are reviewing our position.

[Frederick1]

UKIP are opposed? That is odd, because the UKIP spokesman for trade in October last year said he was for TTIP and privatisation of public services in the UK as a consequence of the arrangement.

 

Of course in the same month UKIP declared to be firmly against TTIP. The joy of a populist party in full action. So where do they stand on this? It is under review apparently. So whilst this is being discussed in the EU by practically everybody the biggest EU representation of the Brits are 'reviewing' their position on it. This is precisely the problem, it leaves the door open for other parties to 'review' their position whilst those that feel this should be resolved sooner rather than later are in a minority to do anything about it.

 

If you understand anything about politics you will know that issues like this need to be sorted, not left in a lurch, because someone somewhere is going to come up with a scheme to push whatever they want through, not being represented appropriately is lethal in those circumstances. The TTIP in its core is something we want, it will boost trade and secure important opportunities for business, but this particular clause is the hot iron and UKIP are choosing to let it fly around, damaging whatever it can. Carry on voting for a party that one day is for, the other day is against and then isn't so sure. It will do the UK the world of good.

 

---------- Post added 26-03-2015 at 12:57 ----------

 

http://www.paulnuttallmep.com/tag/ttip/

 

The last official communication on the topic that I can find - we are against it, but we are reviewing our position.

 

If the article is read thoroughly, it does NOT say they support TTIP or privatising the NHS (which they are also against).

[Harrystottle]

There is a degree of validity in what you say, we see programs like Panorama go 'inside the scandal of toffee eating in the workplace!!!' but the BBC is woefully ignorant about/ignoring the EU. I suspect it is the former, I have never seen anything by any BBC journalist with knowledge of the way the EU works.

 

This may be true. Equally it may be true that the BBC is broadly sympathetic to the EU and routinely does not feature stories that may show the EU in an unflattering light.

And you must admit that the EU signing up to something which would enable US multinationals to sue European governments if they harm US business is not a popular concept.

[L00b]

L00b - UKIP came out completely against TTIP at their Conference last September. Have no doubt it will be in their manifesto too when all of them come out.

UKIP have been consistently blowing hot and cold about TTIP (true to their opportunistic ethos) and, in practical terms at the EU Parliament, where they do wield power and influence, sitting on the fence. UKIP MEPs voting record on TTIP, last 4 votes:

 

Subject: After Recital D, amendment 5: 4 for, 5 absent

Subject: After Recital E, amendment 6: 1 for, 3 against, 5 absent

Subject: Recital H, amendment 9: 4 against, 5 absent

Subject: vote: resolution (as a whole): 1 for, 3 against, 5 absent

 

Lest we forget:

When the anti-EU rationale takes over from the national interest What follows from the previous findings is that UKIP was partly absent when it could have joined forces with other British MEPs to oppose texts perceived as going against the national interest. This was for instance the case when the EP endorsed the project of FTT enhanced cooperation in May 2012 (2 UKIP non-voters) or when it passed a resolution calling for an increase in the EU’s own resources (3 non-voters).

 

More significantly, UKIP voted against measures considered as ‘British victories’ or at least going in the right direction from a British perspective. By voting against a resolution calling to deepen the internal market for services and against the launch of TTIP talks, UKIP MEPs turned their back on a pillar of British EU politics, namely the aim to limit the EU to a ‘free-trade area’. By refusing to endorse the 2014-2020 MFF deal, they missed the opportunity to express their satisfaction at seeing the EU budget shrinking. Finally, their opposition to the creation of the EEAS in 2010 may not come as a surprise for a party believing in Britain’s exceptionalism. Yet from an institutional point of view, the new body does not encroach an inch on UK sovereignty and only provides member states with new opportunities to team up on the international stage.

 

To sum up, UKIP do not take EU policy debates seriously but rather use the resources and visibility they get in the EP as part of the EFD group in order to pursue their anti-EU campaign. Therefore their influence on the EU’s decision-making is totally insignificant, an attitude that does not reinforce

their governing credentials.

(source)

[tzijlstra]

This may be true. Equally it may be true that the BBC is broadly sympathetic to the EU and routinely does not feature stories that may show the EU in an unflattering light.

And you must admit that the EU signing up to something which would enable US multinationals to sue European governments if they harm US business is not a popular concept.

 

The EU isn't signing up to anything without debate, that is a result of the blind-spot in British media about anything related to the EU, according to TTIP protesters this is a 'secretive' and 'behind the doors' proposal from 'faceless EU bureaucrats', which is damned odd as I've known about the debate and concept for years now because it has been all over the Dutch media...

[esme]

Hmm, I raised this issue in August last year - http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1333140

 

I made particular mention of the ISDS clause and the effect it could have on the NHS

 

You were of the opinion then that ISDS wouldn't affect the NHS, it's nice to see you've changed your mind.

[tzijlstra]

Hmm, I raised this issue in August last year - http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1333140

 

I made particular mention of the ISDS clause and the effect it could have on the NHS

 

You were of the opinion then that ISDS wouldn't affect the NHS, it's nice to see you've changed your mind.

 

Excellent memory esme I am still of the opinion that the threat is not significant, however, by not taking part in the debate the UK is leaving itself open to that threat becoming just that. This particular aspect SHOULD be debated as it is so close to everybody.

 

I started this thread because I know not everybody shares my view, but because it is such an insignificant topic in the media people remain unaware of what is going on. It is about time all the nay-voters started to realise the potential consequences of playing with fire.

[Frederick1]

The EU isn't signing up to anything without debate, that is a result of the blind-spot in British media about anything related to the EU, according to TTIP protesters this is a 'secretive' and 'behind the doors' proposal from 'faceless EU bureaucrats', which is damned odd as I've known about the debate and concept for years now because it has been all over the Dutch media...

 

The "debate" is going on as we speak, not only by "faceless EU bureaucrats" but by our Labour and Tory parties.

I too have know about it for a long time, but why, as usual, aren't the politicians telling the public what's going on. Easy, they are pro-EU and stand to gain a lot from it!

[tzijlstra]

The "debate" is going on as we speak, not only by "faceless EU bureaucrats" but by our Labour and Tory parties.

I too have know about it for a long time, but why, as usual, aren't the politicians telling the public what's going on. Easy, they are pro-EU and stand to gain a lot from it!

 

I am not sure how you think politicians gain from the EU, I am pleased you have heard about it but there are still too many people that don't know/care. Thank you for contributing to this thread and helping at least some discussion about it, if the media/politicians don't want to bring it to our attention at least we now have the means to do so ourselves.