US drone have murdered 1000's

[Harleyman]

Unlike some people ( you perhaps? ) I do not become aroused by killing in whatever form it takes.

 

George Orwell once said " People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. "

 

What he failed to take into consideration was that if there were no 'rough men' there wouldn't be a problem, and the rest of us could live our lives in peace.

 

'Roughly' speaking there are three main types of men,

 

1, Those who want to fight and will look for an opportunity to do so and are not overly worried as to the rights or wrongs of the situation

 

2, Those who would prefer not to fight but will reluctantly do so if the circumstances demand it and they believe the cause is just.

 

3, Those who will not fight for reasons ranging from honourable reasons of conscience to less honourable ones of fear.

 

I admire the second and respect the honourable amongst the third. As for those described in number 1, I couldn't care less what happens to them.

 

As for drones the ability to kill your enemy whilst removing all risk to yourself should be correctly described in my view as murder.

 

What else could it be? There is no direct threat to anyone and the victims are killed without trial or chance to defend themselves either physically or verbally.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworld-middle-east-27905425&ei=d-sjVbGYEIe7UbnHguAC&usg=AFQjCNEIkY1e3jjzXX73gJXpD5dvHPidXw&bvm=bv.89947451,d.d24&cad=rja

 

If you look at the first section of that link under the title Non-combatant and read the part that refers to Article 3 in would seem that (d) would make the use of drones against people who can't be positively identified as combatants an offence against the Geneva convention.

 

Maybe that doesn't unduly bother you, and if you are content to see your country behave in a manner not acceptable to civilized peoples then that is your choice.

 

---------- Post added 07-04-2015 at 17:52 ----------

 

 

My comment was 'If I was an ISIS commandant' going on past performance that is how they think isn't it?

 

If we manage to bring this situation under some form of control then we need to learn from the past few years.

 

Experience however tells us we won't, everyone I know that had some basic knowledge of history agreed with me back in 2003 that the Iraq invasion would end in disaster.

 

There was no surprise involved whatsoever, except perhaps to dumb and dumber, Bush and Blair.

 

Still, as the greatest US Marine that ever lived said all those years ago, " Wars a Racket "

 

What a stupid thing to say to someone who has already had a taste of war

All these years later I still haven't spoken a word of what I saw and went through even to my wife or kids and probably never will.

 

For all your high falutin talk about different kinds of men the fact is that when it comes to finding yourself in a situation of combat none of the crap you spouted above matters a damn. You do what you have to do so that you don't fail your brothers, you are not fighting for God or country but for yourself and your brothers. You live in a world of mind numbing boredom and moments of abject fear. You want your momma and you crap your pants. This may sound Hollywood but in my experience it was all very much true

You don't particularly hate the people you kill but you do unto them as they would unto you. Never mind George Orwell. George Orwell was a bit of a fart who got carried away with own intellectuality. Most soldiers are just ordinary everyday people who wouldn't harm a stray cat under normal circumstances

Edited April 7, 2015 by Harleyman

[Zamo]

 

I agree. We should start to mind our own business. but it's a bit too late for that. The fit has already hit the shan Seal up the borders? Given the vast size and geography involved how would we even start to do that?

 

It isn't too late to stop doing the wrong thing... it's the only solution.

 

Of course we can't completely seal the borders. People and some goods will get in but not enough for any quality of life or to mount a military challenge against the West. Stop giving them a common enemy and leave them to it.

[DrNorm]

George Orwell once said " People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

 

From a Few Good Men: "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it!" (Col Jessop)

 

If truth be told. I'm one of those who sleeps peaceably at night because others have put their life on the line. I'm aware that war is brutal and sometimes hard choices have to be made. Innocents suffer.

 

What I think we should all do is question the strategy and whether our actions are just. That's what the veterans did who questioned the use of drones and paid for those ads.

 

What I don't want is for our soldiers, our sons and daughters now, to be placed in danger for actions that aren't killing enemy combatants, but wedding parties and democratic jirgas. Actions that serve to perpetuate violence and hatred, not resolve it. It seems especially wrong when it's not actually a war between countries but where computer operators can identify "signature strikes" with no intelligence to back them up and take out civilians from thousands of miles away.

 

We need strong brave soldiers to defend our democracy. What we don't need is leaders who don't have a strategy but simply use the tools of destruction at hand. With a hammer in their hands they see every problem as a nail.

[Harleyman]

It isn't too late to stop doing the wrong thing... it's the only solution.

 

Of course we can't completely seal the borders. People and some goods will get in but not enough for any quality of life or to mount a military challenge against the West. Stop giving them a common enemy and leave them to it.

 

ISIS needs to be destroyed and driven from all the territory it now occupies. If it's left alone it would only spread since ISIS agenda is to establish a Caliphate across a huge swath of the middle east. Could the west co-exist in peace with an entity like that? Common sense says no. Their brutality, harsh laws and intolerance of any person who fails to accept their twisted doctrine could only mean a refugee crisis which would reach catastrophic levels and that without a doubt would certainly affect the whole of Europe,

 

If you mean sealing the borders of Europe, I don't think so. I could see whole boat loads of asylum seekers sailing across to Marseilles, Sicily, Portugal and southern Spain. What are you going to do with them.. literally. thousands of them?

 

What about middle east countries also which would exist outside the Caliphate? They would be swamped to the point of complete chaos and disaster and they would justifiably hate the west for abandoning the fight against ISIS and leaving them alone to deal with the mess

 

---------- Post added 07-04-2015 at 20:29 ----------

 

From a Few Good Men: "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it!" (Col Jessop)

 

If truth be told. I'm one of those who sleeps peaceably at night because others have put their life on the line. I'm aware that war is brutal and sometimes hard choices have to be made. Innocents suffer.

 

What I think we should all do is question the strategy and whether our actions are just. That's what the veterans did who questioned the use of drones and paid for those ads.

 

What I don't want is for our soldiers, our sons and daughters now, to be placed in danger for actions that aren't killing enemy combatants, but wedding parties and democratic jirgas. Actions that serve to perpetuate violence and hatred, not resolve it. It seems especially wrong when it's not actually a war between countries but where computer operators can identify "signature strikes" with no intelligence to back them up and take out civilians from thousands of miles away.

 

We need strong brave soldiers to defend our democracy. What we don't need is leaders who don't have a strategy but simply use the tools of destruction at hand. With a hammer in their hands they see every problem as a nail.

 

Supposing a terrorist who is responsible for killing hundreds of people, including his own is found to be, through local intelligence reports, hiding among peaceful people, living in a peaceful village, has been reported seen at wedding parties and occasionally seen patting babies on the head separated from that environment so that a kill strike could be effectively carried out?

You say leave him alone because if we hit him with a drone others will be killed also. But if you leave him alone he will just go on planning and arranging more attacks from his keyboard, snug and safe in his village home.

 

How world you solve that problem? Send in ground troops to do the job? Rubbish. He'd get plenty of warning and gone long before they got there

Edited April 7, 2015 by Harleyman

[DrNorm]

That doesn't appeal to my sense of justice.

 

What if your brother committed a serious crime worthy of the death penalty and those in authority wiped him out from the air along with you and the rest of your family?

 

Is that justice? Acceptable collateral damage?

 

ISIS have gained power partly through our own misguided actions. Let's not go further down that road.

[Harleyman]

That doesn't appeal to my sense of justice.

 

What if your brother committed a serious crime worthy of the death penalty and those in authority wiped him out from the air along with you and the rest of your family?

 

Is that justice? Acceptable collateral damage?

 

ISIS have gained power partly through our own misguided actions. Let's not go further down that road.

 

You completely failed to answer my question

[DrNorm]

You mean if the intel was beyond doubt? A recognised leader? Someone who was beyond doubt guilty? Well we're beginning to approach the situation where leaders of good judgement consider the options carefully. Could he be taken out at a later time for example.

 

In cases where the evidence is less clear or non existent as in signature strikes this definitely should not be left to the judgement of a console operator.

 

What about my question to you? Do you think that would be justice?

[mjw47]

What a stupid thing to say to someone who has already had a taste of war

All these years later I still haven't spoken a word of what I saw and went through even to my wife or kids and probably never will.

 

For all your high falutin talk about different kinds of men the fact is that when it comes to finding yourself in a situation of combat none of the crap you spouted above matters a damn. You do what you have to do so that you don't fail your brothers, you are not fighting for God or country but for yourself and your brothers. You live in a world of mind numbing boredom and moments of abject fear. You want your momma and you crap your pants. This may sound Hollywood but in my experience it was all very much true

You don't particularly hate the people you kill but you do unto them as they would unto you. Never mind George Orwell. George Orwell was a bit of a fart who got carried away with own intellectuality. Most soldiers are just ordinary everyday people who wouldn't harm a stray cat under normal circumstances

 

It wasn't a stupid thing to say in response to your completely cretinous remark about me ' having a hard on for the particular means of delivery ' though was it?

 

It was in fact an extremely apt retort to your choice of phrase wasn't it?

 

As for your wartime heroics, I have neither admiration nor condemnation, it was presumably your choice to go to a foreign country and fight for a country you were not born in against an 'enemy' who had done you no personal harm.

 

Glad you survived, but not overly bothered about people who choose to fight in a war that was basically none of their business in a country that they probably couldn't have pointed to on a map before getting involved.

 

My parents generation fought a war that needed fighting you fought one that didn't, the proof of which is you lost, and the sky didn't fall in.

 

As I said I respect the second type of men I described which included my father, uncle and first cousin.

 

Thankfully I never had cause to prove it but I believe I would have followed their example if needed.

 

You strike me as the first type which I described and I've already given my views on them.

 

As for Orwell, he was an arsehole as proven by his ridiculous defence of thugs.

[Harleyman]

It wasn't a stupid thing to say in response to your completely cretinous remark about me ' having a hard on for the particular means of delivery ' though was it?

 

It was in fact an extremely apt retort to your choice of phrase wasn't it?

 

As for your wartime heroics, I have neither admiration nor condemnation, it was presumably your choice to go to a foreign country and fight for a country you were not born in against an 'enemy' who had done you no personal harm.

 

Glad you survived, but not overly bothered about people who choose to fight in a war that was basically none of their business in a country that they probably couldn't have pointed to on a map before getting involved.

 

My parents generation fought a war that needed fighting you fought one that didn't, the proof of which is you lost, and the sky didn't fall in.

 

As I said I respect the second type of men I described which included my father, uncle and first cousin.

 

Thankfully I never had cause to prove it but I believe I would have followed their example if needed.

 

You strike me as the first type which I described and I've already given my views on them.

 

As for Orwell, he was an arsehole as proven by his ridiculous defence of thugs.

 

You're something of an expert on the cold war era then I take it?

 

I think you're just lucky you escaped national service which I didn't. If you had been called up and serving in the British Army in the era that I served your unit might have been sent to some part of the world like Cyprus, Aden or Kenya to participate in operations or mini wars against groups hostile to a waning empire.

 

You would have kept your gob shut, carried out your orders and completed your service like millions of other NS men did so spare me the BS about what wars should be fought and what wars should not be. You are a little man like me and millions of others. Keyboard warriors don't count for anything nor do their so called intellectual opinions on the subject

Edited April 8, 2015 by Harleyman

[mjw47]

You're something of an expert on the cold war era then I take it?

 

I think you're just lucky you escaped national service which I didn't. If you had been called up and serving in the British Army in the era that I served your unit might have been sent to some part of the world like Cyprus, Aden or Kenya to participate in operations or mini wars against groups hostile to a waning empire.

 

You would have kept your gob shut, carried out your orders and completed your service like millions of other NS men did so spare me the BS about what wars should be fought and what wars should not be. You are a little man like me and millions of others. Keyboard warriors don't count for anything nor do their so called intellectual opinions

 

Getting a little upset are we? :

 

Expert?

 

No, but I know this, my Yankee doodle dandy macho man, America got itself involved in a war in Vietnam which if it had any sense whatsoever it would have avoided at any cost.

 

Any objective overview of what took place at Dien Bien Phu between the 13th March and 7th May 1954 should have told the USA that they were on to a hiding to nothing.

 

The English - and latterly the Americans - like to insult the French with claims of their cowardice.

 

All this does is show how ignorant and thick a lot of English and Americans are.

 

The French are the most successful military nation in Europe as regards wars fought, wars won.

 

If the French couldn't handle it there was no chance the Yanks could, but of course the Yanks think they know better than everyone and that overwhelming force is the answer to everything.

 

Well they learned a lesson there didn't they?

 

And as I said,what did it matter in the end? All that killing and dying for what? What did it achieve other than to show the largest military power that ever existed - but by no means the best - could be defeated, which was a little humiliating for a country which thinks so highly of itself.

 

What is your point about me being the wrong age for conscription, what's that got to do with anything?

 

Of course I'd have done as I was told, so what?

 

And Kenya, Cyprus and Aden were other examples of colonial interference and balls ups that ended badly.

 

As for keyboard warrior are you losing it?

 

I'm the one that has stated that I wouldn't volunteer to fight unless I considered the cause just, whilst you're the" kill em all, use drones " whether or not they are a direct threat to you.

 

The only keyboard warrior on here is you.

 

Oh and try cutting down on the John Wayne films, too many Pilgrim, Dude and High Falutin's creeping in.