Don't immunise your child, lose benefits?

[L00b]

You appear to be calling me a liar?

Unless you sincerely believe that sanitation in 1970s Somalia and Bangladesh was better then than it has been for the last 40+ years, and that is was better and has remained better than in the UK presently (wherein measles is making a comeback due to the volume of unvaccinated children in the wake of the MMR controversy) yes, I am.

 

If that is your belief however, then I can rest with my belief that, though you may not be a liar indeed, your are a crackpot instead.

 

Fair enough?

I said

I know what you said, I can read.

Presumably you actually agree with me that some rich people do think for themselves, and that some are aware all is not well with the medical system'?

Before I consent to your strawman and do any such agreeing, you'll first have to agree with me that (except -perhaps at that- for your unquantified 'some') "rich people" vaccinate their kids, and have done so, the world over at that, for a very long time indeed.

 

Until then, you can dance I'm afraid.

I have no idea how many, or what proportion they constitute, neither do I care.

You should, if only to demonstrate that your argument has inherent validity, rather than merely constituting a statistical anomaly.

 

Perhaps this statement of yours is symptomatic of the problem here: you keep debating on the basis of the conclusions you want to reach, rather than consider the evidence in context and rationally, and draw conclusions from same.

I do know, however that some rich people do think for themselves, and that some are aware all is not well with the medical system.

 

In the unlikely event that you believe no rich people do think for themselves, and that some are aware all is not well with the medical system', do feel free to offer evidence yourself.

I did not make any such assertion dave, it is -still- yours to prove. Edited April 14, 2015 by L00b

[onewheeldave]

He's not my doctor, he is someone that sells stuff over the internet so he has a vested interest on convincing people that what he sells is better than medical treatment.

 

I know he's not your doctor. I assumed when you said people should listen to the experts that you weren't suggesting they should only listen to your doctor

 

Dr Mcdougal appears to sell low-fat vegan versions of pot noodles in his online shop.

 

On his main site, in his books, and, in the free articles he posts on the web, he advocates that people eat plant based, low fat, vegan foods, focusiing primarily on starches (potato, grains, corn, sweet potato etc), with leafy vegetables (broccoli, cabbage etc) and some fruits.

 

He believes eating such a diet is a superior way of tackling health issues than many orthodox drug based symptom management procedures.

 

He clearly does not benefit financially by people going out and buying potatoes and brocoli.

 

Why does he sell what appears to be low-fat vegan versions of pot noodles in his online shop? I don't know. I'd guess that it's for those who've spent their entire lives eating processed crap, who are emotionally unable to deal with moving straight onto a diet of plant-based actual real food? So they can transition gently?

 

Whatever the reason, he clearly advocates that people eat starches and vegetables, from which he clearly does not profit.

 

Indeed, him and the many other doctors who advocate the eating of real food to deal with health issues, often comment on why, despite the masses of evidence that shows that eating real food and going plant based is so good for health, that the medical profession as a whole continues on it's course of symptom management via drugs. Pointing out that there is $billions in profit from drugs for the pharmaceutical industry (and therefore, for the medical system), but zero from getting people to eat real food.

 

Obviously Dr McDougal could make a lot more money by performing colonoscopies and pushing drugs, than he does by encouraging his patients to eat real food.

 

In contrast, your doctors entire career depends on him issuing the drugs and procedures that Dr Mcdougal doesn't.

 

Not saying your doctors a crook- from what I can see the majority of UK doctors have no idea of the corruption that underlies our medical system.

 

---------- Post added 14-04-2015 at 12:44 ----------

 

 

If your GP had a business that made him lots of money, and when you went to see him with a problem, instead of referring to to a specialist, he directed you to his business, would you trust him?

 

I address with this in my post above

Edited April 14, 2015 by onewheeldave

[JFKvsNixon]

I didn't say there was "substantial research that concludes that for every one person who's life is saved by having a colonoscopy, one person is killed."

 

I stated the easily checkable fact that, in his article, Dr Mcdougal said it.

 

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence, and by you're own admission Dr Mcdougal's work isn't extraordinary evidence.

 

---------- Post added 14-04-2015 at 12:46 ----------

 

Obviously Dr McDougal could make a lot more money by performing colonoscopies and pushing drugs, than he does by encouraging his patients to eat real food.

 

No he couldn't he's not a gastroenterologist.

[loraward]

I know he's not your doctor. I assumed when you said people should listen to the experts that you weren't suggesting they should only listen to your doctor

 

Dr Mcdougal appears to sell low-fat vegan versions of pot noodles in his online shop.

 

On his main site, in his books, and, in the free articles he posts on the web, he advocates that people eat plant based, low fat, vegan foods, focusiing primarily on starches (potato, grains, corn, sweet potato etc), with leafy vegetables (broccoli, cabbage etc) and some fruits.

 

He believes eating such a diet is a superior way of tackling health issues than many orthodox drug based symptom management procedures.

 

He clearly does not benefit financially by people going out and buying potatoes and brocoli.

 

Why does he sell what appears to be low-fat vegan versions of pot noodles in his online shop? I don't know. I'd guess that it's for those who've spent their entire lives eating processed crap, who are emotionally unable to deal with moving straight onto a diet of plant-based actual real food? So they can transition gently?

 

Whatever the reason, he clearly advocates that people eat starches and vegetables, from which he clearly does not profit.

 

Indeed, him and the many other doctors who advocate the eating of real food to deal with health issues, often comment on why, despite the masses of evidence that shows that eating real food and going plant based is so good for health, that the medical profession as a whole continues on it's course of symptom management via drugs. Pointing out that there is $billions in profit from drugs for the pharmaceutical industry (and therefore, for the medical system), but zero from getting people to eat real food.

 

Obviously Dr McDougal could make a lot more money by performing colonoscopies and pushing drugs, than he does by encouraging his patients to eat real food.

 

In contrast, your doctors entire career depends on him issuing the drugs and procedures that Dr Mcdougal doesn't.

 

Not saying your doctors a crook- from what I can see the majority of UK doctors have no idea of the corruption that underlies our medical system.

 

---------- Post added 14-04-2015 at 12:44 ----------

 

 

I address with this in my post above

 

My doctor also advocates eating real food and taking plenty of exercise but he doesn't go against the medical evidence that says vaccines work and are safe.

[onewheeldave]

I am not saying that anybody should follow anybody blindly but you have to accept that you cannot gain the knowledge and experience that a gastroenterologist has gained by doing a few hours research on the internet.

 

What you need to do is use your gastroenterologist/GP/any specialist as a your reference tool, and direct all your questions and concerns towards them.

I disagree.

 

For the research, it's a lot more than a few hours. And, it involves listening to experts I do trust, who, in their turn, have done lots of research to form their opinions.

 

I think when it comes to a procedure that many experts openly question the value and safety of, IMO it makes a lot of sense to be wary of the protestations of those experts whose entire career depends on that procedures survival.

 

Not saying they're necessarily dishonest, just that it's human nature to not question too closely things that your life & career is built on.

 

Then there's the actual facts as posted by Mcdougal and others, such as the one that, whereas patients are told serious colonoscopy complications are extremely rare, the actual stats are 1 in 200 procedures ends with a serious complication.

[JFKvsNixon]

Then there's the actual facts as posted by Mcdougal and others, such as the one that, whereas patients are told serious colonoscopy complications are extremely rare, the actual stats are 1 in 200 procedures ends with a serious complication.

 

Instead of regurgitating the same line over and over again, show me the evidence of this. You saying that someone else says it's true doesn't count.

[onewheeldave]

Dr Mcdougal is quite clearly in a conflict of interest situation, and maintaining that situation in any way or form is a cardinal sin for any professional.

 

Unsurprisingly, the GMC has relevant rules about this possibility.

 

If you seriously think that Dr Mcdougal selling low fat vegan pot noodles is a coinflict of interest, then you should immediately contact the GMC, so they can deal with it

 

Interesting that you don't think it's a conflict of interest that professionals whose careers depends on administering a procedure that seriously damages 1 in 200 of those who undergo it, aren't in a conflict of interest situation when it comes to recommending that procedure.

 

Interesting that you don't think a underfunded medical system that is financially sustained by donation from pharmaceutical companies, isn't in a conflict of interest when it prioritises symptom management via drugs, over curing with dietary interventions.

[SnailyBoy]

I disagree.

 

For the research, it's a lot more than a few hours. And, it involves listening to experts I do trust, who, in their turn, have done lots of research to form their opinions.

 

I think when it comes to a procedure that many experts openly question the value and safety of, IMO it makes a lot of sense to be wary of the protestations of those experts whose entire career depends on that procedures survival.

 

Not saying they're necessarily dishonest, just that it's human nature to not question too closely things that your life & career is built on.

 

Then there's the actual facts as posted by Mcdougal and others, such as the one that, whereas patients are told serious colonoscopy complications are extremely rare, the actual stats are 1 in 200 procedures ends with a serious complication.

 

How does an 'expert' gain your trust?

[onewheeldave]

No he couldn't he's not a gastroenterologist.

True. My mistake.

 

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence, and by you're own admission Dr Mcdougal's work isn't extraordinary evidence.

I know. But he does back up his opinions with stats and evidence. Personally, I don't consider the view that colonoscopies are less benefical than has been claimed, and that they can cause serious harm, to be an extraordinary claim.

[JFKvsNixon]

If you seriously think that Dr Mcdougal selling low fat vegan pot noodles is a coinflict of interest, then you should immediately contact the GMC, so they can deal with it

 

Interesting that you don't think it's a conflict of interest that professionals whose careers depends on administering a procedure that seriously damages 1 in 200 of those who undergo it, aren't in a conflict of interest situation when it comes to recommending that procedure.

 

Interesting that you don't think a underfunded medical system that is financially sustained by donation from pharmaceutical companies, isn't in a conflict of interest when it prioritises symptom management via drugs, over curing with dietary interventions.

 

Ok, this is a fascinating example of how you see the world.

 

On the one hand you have one person who's not a specialist in a field, and was once belittled by a gastroenterologist, who then writes a rant internet blog about it. On the other hand you have the consensus of opinion from an entire filed of medicine.

 

Which one do you choose do believe?