Immigrants dying in the Mediterranean

[JFKvsNixon]

You keep going back to it being the responsibility of rich nations to sort the mess but don't tell us how?

 

You keep saying we have a duty to save those people but then dodge the point that taking people out of the country (who want change) will stifle change because you remove opposition. This simple condemns others to the fate that we save the refugees from. If your short-term solution results in more long-term suffering and death then not doing it is the right decision even if it makes us uncomfortable.

 

What exactly is the strategy to sort the mess? How will it differ from our other interventions that have made things worse over there and here?

 

For the third time. Do you really believe that we (the richer countries) can pull up the drawbridge and wash our hand on what goes on in the rest of the world without any consequences?

Edited April 23, 2015 by JFKvsNixon

[Alan Ladd]

The only way to sort out these countries is via the UN. If the members were to agree to undertake mandates in the same way as we did in the 20s following the 1st World war and the end of the Ottoman empire it could be done. However, it will need more than US/UK.

 

Russia, China, Iran, the EU, Saudi Arabia,plus others would need to be involved. it would cost billions, we would have to be prepared for bodybags as thousands of troops would die. It could be done.

 

My bet? Nothing will happen until we are confronting ISIS and the rest of them on our streets. Then it may be too late.

[Zamo]

Got it in one, Legine.

 

But you left out the dictator bit, and we'd need to set one up as well (and a non-proselyte, preferably secular and benevolent one at that) rather than a 'democratically-elected' government.

 

The problem with 'democratic' is that not all will be pleased by the election outcome. Now, every one will say 'so what? same problem here'...however that is IMHO precisely what has proven to be the fundamental and enduring problem everywhere it's been tried in Afghanistan and the Middle East: the fundy beardies don't accept the democratic choice and kick off, or the democratic choice eventually turns out to be fundy beardies, with the same consequences on the local population. Just ask the Iranians.

 

No such issue with a dictator. Other issues, absolutely. But less of a chaotic power vacuum in which a large and unbridled terrorist ecosystem can breed and endure openly.

 

A very uncomfortable truth, as you say...but a case of needs must, again IMHO.

 

A full blown intervention or doing nothing are the only sensible choices.

 

A full blown intervention though is a long term and expensive commitment and would inevitably result in even more flocking to the cause of the fundy beardies. The price (financially as well as enduring more terrorists attacks at home) would be very high and would only be bearable if we handsomely compensate ourselves with spoils. Without spoils to sweeten the electorate I do not believe any government would dare pay the price and I don't think the UN would ever sanction the taking of spoils.

[L00b]

A full blown intervention or doing nothing are the only sensible choices.

I daresay there are still some practical choices to be had in-between these extremes. Lest Med beaches eventually become a holidaying no-go, as who'd want to swim amongst floating bodies?

A full blown intervention though is a long term and expensive commitment and would inevitably result in even more flocking to the cause of the fundy beardies. The price (financially as well as enduring more terrorists attacks at home) would be very high and would only be bearable if we handsomely compensate ourselves with spoils. Without spoils to sweeten the electorate I do not believe any government would dare pay the price and I don't think the UN would ever sanction the taking of spoils.

I don't think the UN got any oar in about the US' spoils from Kuwait and Iraq, to this day.

 

As regards 'flocking to the cause', (i) we're about there now anyway [5 attacks foiled in France and countless interceptions of would-be jihadis and at Turkish borders since mid-January '15 alone] and (ii) not doing anything would result in just as much flocking, to "combat the Western Satans whose inaction is taking food away from starving babies' mouths" (propaganda is a two-way street).

[Zamo]

I daresay there are still some practical choices to be had in-between these extremes. Lest Med beaches eventually become a holidaying no-go, as who'd want to swim amongst floating bodies?

I don't think the UN got any oar in about the US' spoils from Kuwait and Iraq, to this day.

 

Fishing them out of the water and taking them back is about the only practical 'in-between' action we should do.

 

As regards 'flocking to the cause', (i) we're about there now anyway [5 attacks foiled in France and countless interceptions of would-be jihadis and at Turkish borders since mid-January '15 alone] and (ii) not doing anything would result in just as much flocking, to "combat the Western Satans whose inaction is taking food away from starving babies' mouths" (propaganda is a two-way street).

 

The fundy beardy cause wasn't being embraced by Western Muslims until our interventions made us the bogeyman. Stopping our interventions is likely to reverse the trend and further interventions fuel it. And we only need to look to the Muslim world to see we are still a long way from 'about there' in terms of levels of extremism.

 

I still firmly believe it is all or nothing.

[Halibut]

Fishing them out of the water and taking them back is about the only practical 'in-between' action we should do.

 

 

 

The fundy beardy cause wasn't being embraced by Western Muslims until our interventions made us the bogeyman. Stopping our interventions is likely to reverse the trend and further interventions fuel it. And we only need to look to the Muslim world to see we are still a long way from 'about there' in terms of levels of extremism.

 

I still firmly believe it is all or nothing.

 

I think you live in an empathy vacuum.

[Harrystottle]

I think you live in an empathy vacuum.

 

Better that than a reality vacuum.

[loraward]

I think you live in an empathy vacuum.

 

Zamo clearly empathizes with their plight but he also understands the realty of the situation.

[despritdan]

Cameron's offer to send the Navy over there to help rescue the migrants whilst insisting that none will be allowed to come here is laughable and unfair to Italy which he seems to think should shoulder the burden alone. We all know that these people will soon be heading north to countries like Britain, France, Germany, Sweden and Norway and barring an overall majority for UKIP, which seems unlikely, we'll soon be swamped by them, especially if we have parties like Labour, the Greens and the S.N.P. holding the reins.

The impact on this country will be horrendous and we'll just implode socially and economically. The irony is that this could trigger off a huge exodus of white Europeans into East European countries in order to escape the chaos as they have have much smaller population densities, cheap houses and at the moment seem to be free from the dark cloud of Islam that overshadows our lives.

[Obelix]

free from the dark cloud of Islam that overshadows our lives.

 

It must be terrible to be so frightened of the world..