Immigrants dying in the Mediterranean

[loraward]

That hypothetical outcome pre-supposes that

 

(i) your strategy is 100% effective (no one gets through howsoever, and the news consistently gets out loud and clear over and above the marketing din of the traffickers - because whilever some get through, the rest will try), and

 

(ii) remains so (traffickers eventually give up rather than invest a bit and devise search-foiling alternatives to what is -for the time being- their cockleshell-packing approach to smuggling).

 

Calais alone, for all the anecdotal character of its evidentiary value, should tell you that the above is most unlikely: there's a single entry point to the Chunnel, X-ray scanners and volumes of security bodies and more, and illegals still get through. I'll let you extrapolate how that goes when the problem is scaled up to thousands upon thousands of coastal mileage stretching from Gib to just about the Bosphorus, and a body of sea into the millions of square miles.

 

Remember that druglords faced with ever-increasing interdiction eventually built their own mini-subs to smuggle dope. If the 'game' is worth it to them, that's the kind of resourcefulness you're squaring against with your approach.

 

[tinfoil hat] If it came to that, I also hear that Putin has an increasingly vested interest in destabilising the EU, and he's got a fair few spare uboats with bored crews, who could do with the exercise and some hard currency pay [/tinfoil hat]

You've just doubled the costs with that one, by increasing the travel requirements and combined displacement of the enforcing navy (-ies) with full roundtrips and towing on a full leg. Selling the boats wouldn't even cover the fuel, they're worthless shells to begin with.

 

If all you're bothered about is penny-pinching, rest easy, the UK has long washed its hands off the 'Med problem' anyway, and illegals making it to mainland EU by and large can't get through to the UK, until and unless they get refugee status or EU citizenship (both very long shots). As you support a UK exit from the EU (IIRC?), I don't see why you'd be so bothered about it.

 

It doesn't need to be 100% affective just more affective than it is now.

The topic is about immigrants dying in the med, so nothing to do with Calais.

What makes you think it bothers me, its a discussion, which is an exchange of ideas, and as the topic is about immigrants dying in the med, the ideas should be about stopping them from dying, and the best why to do that is to stop them trying to cross the med in flimsy over crowded boats. And the best way to achieve that is to send the message that they won't get across and even if they do they will be sent back.

[L00b]

The topic is about immigrants dying in the med, so nothing to do with Calais.

That's a bit myopic for you: the motivating factors are the same, so the comparison is entirely valid.

What makes you think it bothers me, its a discussion, which is an exchange of ideas, and as the topic is about immigrants dying in the med, the ideas should be about stopping them from dying, and the best why to do that is to stop them trying to cross the med in flimsy over crowded boats.

We agree on that, but...

It doesn't need to be 100% affective just more affective than it is now. <...>

And the best way to achieve that is to send the message that they won't get across and even if they do they will be sent back.

...we disagree on that.

 

To coin an analogy, your suggestion (intercept and reconduct refugees) is to buy paracetamol to cure headaches and other symptoms caused by a brain tumour.

 

My suggestion (intervene directly and/or indirectly in North Africa to improve living conditions and socio-economic context) is to operate on the brain tumour.

 

Don't cure the brain tumour and eventually death ensues: at term, nothing much left at all in North Africa in the way of structures and socio-economic order, just a sandy MadMax-esque void of conflict-torn fiefdoms headed by warlords tainted by religious extremism...and still the same problem that it's boiling away right on our doorstep, precipitating masses of refugees to us who have nothing much left to live for, but to get in or bust.

[Zamo]

My suggestion (intervene directly and/or indirectly in North Africa to improve living conditions and socio-economic context) is to operate on the brain tumour.

 

The problem is it isn't our brain tumour to operate on.

[SevenRivers]

Pick them up but land them all back in Libya and stop bringing them to Europe's shores.

[leviathan13]

That's right, they would soon get the message that trying to cross might result in death, almost certainly will result in suffering, and definitely won't result in living in Europe.

 

Is that the same logic as using the death penalty to totally eradicate serious crimes in such advanced countries as America...?

[Zamo]

Is that the same logic as using the death penalty to totally eradicate serious crimes in such advanced countries as America...?

 

It is the same logic as making murder a crime... it doesn't stop it from happening but it does reduce it.

[tzijlstra]

We should send rescue boats out, pick them up and return them to the African side of the med.

 

We don't agree very often, but we do on this one. I assume we also agree that we need to have a much stronger joint EU effort to sort this out, rather than putting most of the cost and hassle on Italian shoulders.

 

(Not read rest of thread)

[-Boomer-]

I would believe it if these people were refugee's fleeing conflict, but the majority (certainly the ones I have seen interviewed) are economic migrants who have saved up money to pay their way into the EU. We make it easy by picking them up in the med and bringing them onto EU soil. We, or should I say the Italian's are doing part of the job.

 

I disagree, I reckon they will have paid very little up front or at least as much as they can afford and pay then rest to collectors in europe. Nor am I convinced they are all being smuggled too, but some trafficked.

[Berberis]

I disagree, I reckon they will have paid very little up front or at least as much as they can afford and pay then rest to collectors in europe. Nor am I convinced they are all being smuggled too, but some trafficked.

 

Wrong.

 

Why is 2014 proving such a terrible year? The answer is a combination of factors: war, upheaval and economic rout on Europe’s periphery; the cynicism of smugglers who can charge as much as $10,000 (£6,200) to move a person from A to B, even if B is the bottom of the ocean; the breakdown of law and order in one of the principal conduits for migrants – Libya; the Italian rescue mission which paradoxically may be encouraging more people to risk everything in overladen fishing vessels ill-equipped for the job.

 

ref: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/20/-sp-migrants-tales-asylum-sea-mediterranean

[MikeFrank]

I don't think any of the EU governments will do anything about it. If they help the people to safety in Italy thousands more will try.

 

Its sad for the people trying to find safety. But there are plenty bad people trying to come as well... the problem is how do you find out who is who?