Why is telling girls to be careful rape apologistic

[loraward]

 

How can you prove a rape has been avoided? By definition if it's been avoided it hasn't happened.

 

It's like saying I have a burglar alarm and that's proof that I haven't been burgled.

 

I didn't say it could be proven, but if after running a poster campaign the number of rapes halved you would have some evidence that the poster had the desired affect.

[leviathan13]

It won't happen because no one will try, it's easier to blame the victim

 

No one is 'blaming' anyone! It's not a person's fault if they are raped, but there's no harm in being cautious.

 

I know some of the states I've been in. Sometimes I wonder how I've gotten home, and with my wallet etc. as I've fallen asleep in some very dodgy places in the city centre. luckily I've never been robbed in this situation, but if I had: would it have been right? No. But there are people in this world with less morals than others. So, taking that in to consideration: would it have been my own fault? It can be argued 'yes', as I knew the risks and failed to take the approriate action to reduce my chances of it happening.

 

It's not apologising for rapists by telling someone to take care. Yes, we should be allowed to wear what we like and go in to whichever pub/bar/part of Sheffield we like without fear of something happening. But until we rid the world of these hideous people, there's no harm in us taking responsibility for our own actions and reducing our own risks.

[RootsBooster]

You only fall prey to complacency only if you are aware of you're complacency, not being aware isn't a crime. I doubt most are aware prior to going out to enjoy themselves with the many hurdles life could throw at them..we'd all end up like smithy, paranoid, which would make going out a hoot.

Nobody is saying it's a crime, that's exactly my point!

Why on Earth would anybody even suspect that the campaigns would carry such a message?

 

The result being that entire business empires initially give poor advice to their advantage then come around for a second helping from further poor advantagious advice from the same said but different business empire advising you to hop on their roller coaster. It's just a selling racket, not good advice. If it was good 'there would be a lot less debt, a lot less repossessions, a lot less regret, a lot less misery'.

I'm sorry, you've lost me again, I don't know what kind of businesses you were talking about but I was thinking more about financial advisors, citizen's advice, social workers etc, these things actually do help people avoid the bad things happening to them.

 

'He' being Cyclone, 'her' being Olive or your partner.

Once more, lost me, I didn't mention anything about Cyclone and Olive being partners, I gave two examples; One of myself and Cyclone, the other of myself and Olive

 

Why would large business empires imply that size 10 photoshopped woman is the perfect specimen? Unless it's seen as excellent advice to follow and is followed.

Really, really lost me now. You said that campaigns advising children how to reduce risks are not comparable to campaigns advising women how to reduce risks.

Now you're comparing campaigns advising women how to reduce risks to... a picture of a skinny woman?

 

Some advice is very poor especially if it's deemed interfering with peoples individual choices directly or indirectly. How they perceive that message is at their discretion, not mine or yours whether for the right or wrong reasons.

Yes some advice is poor. I don't think that advice explaining that you can become more vulnerable when you drink excessively and wander off on your own particularly falls into that category. Do you?

 

I would think mainly because those posters don't center around a specific demographic with women being highlighted.

Of course they do, all such campaigns focus on a specific demographic. Be it car owners, pedestrians, cyclists, homeowners/tenants, drunken men, people who fiddle with an expensive phone in public a lot, elderly people, etc.

 

I would seriously like to see evidence that drinking by women is directly linked generally as the cause of rape, not evidence that drink was a factor when it took place. Like you I'm ready to take on board but a tie-in has to be made to justify the highlight. To make it easier we'll ignore all the other rape demographics and concentrate on women in bars drinking to excess that have been raped, if it helps.

Sorry? Who is claiming that drinking by women is the cause of rape? Certainly the awareness campaigns don't

Could you clarify what you mean by this?

 

Neither, I for one haven't professed implicitness, I just can't find anything that overwhelmingly substantiates the claim. I have no reason or agenda to refute should it be so.

I wasn't talking about yourself, although the 'not being aware isn't a crime' and the 'I would seriously like to see evidence that drinking by women is directly linked generally as the cause of rape' comments don't help your neutrality on the matter.

 

Should I take some of your post as a result of the wee early hours?

[Flanker7]

Are you Beach Body Ready?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/apr/27/mass-demonstration-planned-over-beach-body-ready-tube-advert?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

 

Nothing negative here.

Are there parallels with what we are discussing here? I think there are.

 

Some perceive the 'half empty' side of things whilst others are optimistic.

Both view points have some truth.

 

However, I think negative thinking is blight on lives

[Cyclone]

So should the advice be.

 

Ladies go out and get as drunk as you like, walk home alone through the park, or go home with someone you just met, and do worry to much about being raped, there's a good chance that you won't be raped but if you are we are here to help.

 

What makes you think that women need someone to give them advice?

 

---------- Post added 28-04-2015 at 09:04 ----------

 

Would this message be more suitable.

 

Rapists are predators that prefer to target lone women that have been drinking.

 

In this they wouldn't be telling women not to do anything, they will just be giving out information about rapists.

 

Yes, IMO, that's giving out the same information without presuming to tell women what to do or not to do.

[loraward]

What makes you think that women need someone to give them advice?

 

I don't think they need advice, all though many people do benefit from advice.

People are given advice all the time, how to stay healthy, how to loose weight, how to avoid having accidents ect.

 

One on the news this morning, a family died in an house fire caused by a faulty phone charger. I don't see anything wrong with advising people to turn phone chargers off when they go out or to bed.

[Cyclone]

I think it's a thread worth extending, it's something that is a serious problem and I feel that poster-blamers (the Mr.D's) unwittingly and indirectly side with the victim-blamers by reinforcing their belief that the posters should be interpreted as saying or implying something more than they are.

Well I disagree, and neither of us can somehow prove our opinion is correct, so I'm not sure what the point of continuing to restate that opinion is.

 

I don't think it's so much a case of us disagreeing, I'm always open to reason and I've had my mind changed by reasoned discussion several times over the years on SF.

Same here. But this isn't objective, there is no proof available without a large sociological study, that probably doesn't exist.

It seems to me that some poster-blamers simply can't change a long-ingrained opinion, even in the face of logic and reason. It's similar to when someone defines themselves as (what amounts to) an atheist, but can't bring themselves to accept that they are an atheist because they've thought of it being like a dirty word for so long.

My belief isn't long held, and if there were some evidence to contradict it then I'd change it. But mine and your opinion are subjective and no evidence is available.

 

The two reasons given for believing that advice/awareness campaigns are victim-blaming do not stand up to scrutiny, as has been shown;

 

1. The campaigns are victim-blaming because victim-blamers say so.

This is so messed up it's unreal, basing your opinion on the opinion of someone (the victim-blamer) who's opinion, overall, you believe is wrong. It's ****ed up!

Not only does that not actually give a reason for the campaigns themselves to be seen as victim-blaming, you're also giving the victim-blamers a helping hand in hijacking simple advice and turning it into a "Their own fault" campaign.

 

2. The campaigns advise and/or tell people to change their behaviour, this means the focus is in the wrong place.

Again, this in itself isn't a reason to see the campaigns as victim blaming. By "telling people to change their behaviour", you're talking about the advice not to drink yourself into a stupor and/or wander off on your own. There are many awareness/advice campaigns related to different crimes and situations, giving like for like avice. To claim that one of them is victim-blaming means that all the others must be victim-blaming, which they obviously are not.

EDIT: If it's a matter of focus, focusing solely on the rapists means that somebody has to be raped for the other person to become a rapist, that's too late. Tackling a problem like this doesn't involve a laser beam that can only focus on one thing, panorama is much more effective.

 

You misattribute (subtly) the reasons given for why the poster campaigns (or any other advice given to women about how to behave) is victim blaming.

I don't think anyone ever claimed your point 1. That victim blamers say it supports them.

The fact is that the behaviour of victim blamers suggests that they are supported by such campaigns, AND that (some) women feel that it supports them.

You've also ignored the 3rd point. That it increases self blame and the feeling of being at fault in those who have already been raped.

Oh, and I think you're wrong about point 2 as well.

 

---------- Post added 28-04-2015 at 09:10 ----------

 

Why would it be misleading, most rape victims are lone women that have been drinking

 

This is simply not true.

 

---------- Post added 28-04-2015 at 09:15 ----------

 

This is a useful poster about avoiding rape;

 

http://www.ifyouonlynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/11033188_1619741621570798_524321945936090417_n.jpg

[RootsBooster]

Well I disagree, and neither of us can somehow prove our opinion is correct, so I'm not sure what the point of continuing to restate that opinion is.

I don't need to prove anything, I'm not making any additional claims about these campaigns other than the message they literally contain. I'm taking the awareness campaigns at literary face value, not making any extra assumptions about them or suspecting them of implications other than what they literally say.

 

You're the one making the claim that they're victim-blaming. You know how the burden of proof works.

 

Same here. But this isn't objective, there is no proof available without a large sociological study, that probably doesn't exist.

no proof for what?

 

My belief isn't long held, and if there were some evidence to contradict it then I'd change it. But mine and your opinion are subjective and no evidence is available.

Again you're using flawed logic, you hold a belief about something for which there is no evidence, then say you might change your mind if there's evidence contrary to it (contrary to your lack of evidence?)

If there's no evidence then the default position would be to just take the campaign messages at face value, rather than jump to conclusions.

 

Your opinion is indeed subjective, mine however is objective. It's based solely on the literal message, as I've already said. Verbatim, no looking for hidden meanings or implications.

 

You misattribute (subtly) the reasons given for why the poster campaigns (or any other advice given to women about how to behave) is victim blaming.

I don't think anyone ever claimed your point 1. That victim blamers say it supports them.

You claim that the posters are victim blaming because they enable victim blaming (which makes no sense), the posters themselves only give advice, so the people being 'enabled' to victim-blame must surely be a third party. If they don't think the posters agree with their opinion then how do the posters 'enable' them?

The fact is that the behaviour of victim blamers suggests that they are supported by such campaigns, AND that (some) women feel that it supports them.

This right here is a very important part of the discussion. It does NOT suggest that it supports them, it only suggests that THEY think it supports them. The fact that you say this only adds to the fallacy.

 

You've also ignored the 3rd point. That it increases self blame and the feeling of being at fault in those who have already been raped.

Oh, and I think you're wrong about point 2 as well.

How does it increase self blame and feeling of being at fault?

We've already heard from one victim who says nothing of the sort (Obviously she doesn't speak for all, it's just an example).

 

The campaigns give a literal message (for example 'Drinking excessively can leave you more vulnerable). This is the first step.

 

The next step is how people view it. There's the objective view, taking it at face value and then there's all the (many) subjective views.

What you're doing is taking one of these subjective views (ignoring most others) and then going back to the first step and blaming the poster for this person's view. By making this illogical link you're strengthening their belief.

 

It's jumping to conclusions, pure and simple.

Edited April 28, 2015 by RootsBooster

[sgtkate]

Would this message be more suitable.

 

Rapists are predators that prefer to target lone women that have been drinking.

 

In this they wouldn't be telling women not to do anything, they will just be giving out information about rapists.

 

Well actually the stats say that rapists are likely to be someone you know who will take advantage of you when you are inside your own house or theirs...so unless the advice is that it seems a little pointless.

[RootsBooster]

Well actually the stats say that rapists are likely to be someone you know who will take advantage of you when you are inside your own house or theirs...so unless the advice is that it seems a little pointless.

 

You can safely ignore loraward (aka Smiffy).