Why is telling girls to be careful rape apologistic

[Cyclone]

You derailed the thread by bringing cake into the discussion.

 

---------- Post added 30-04-2015 at 10:40 ----------

 

 

That works both ways, two people meet in a night club, both have been drinking, neither can be 100% that each as consented, thousands have sex on a nightly basis with no problems, but occasionally someone claims they was too drunk to consent to sex and the other is accused of rape.

 

What makes you think that two people who have been drinking can't be sure that they are consenting?

You think that having a drink makes clear consent impossible?

 

---------- Post added 30-04-2015 at 10:47 ----------

 

I do

You claim that you understand what consent is, but you thought that someone could eat cake without consent...

but you appear to lack the capacity to understand that when people are drunk the boundary is blurred and people don't think rationally.

Is that supposed to be an excuse for rape?

 

Its not difficult in your black and white world in which everyone is sober apart from the one making the accusation of rape.

 

Wherever did I suggest that? Just making things up now are we?

Edited April 30, 2015 by Cyclone

[sgtkate]

You derailed the thread by bringing cake into the discussion.

 

---------- Post added 30-04-2015 at 10:40 ----------

 

 

That works both ways, two people meet in a night club, both have been drinking, neither can be 100% that each as consented, thousands have sex on a nightly basis with no problems, but occasionally someone claims they was too drunk to consent to sex and the other is accused of rape.

 

Absolute rubbish. If you are too drunk to tell if someone has given you consent then don't sleep with them. It's all incredible simple. If you lack the ability to tell if you are raping someone or not then you have failed as a human being.

[loraward]

Absolute rubbish. If you are too drunk to tell if someone has given you consent then don't sleep with them. It's all incredible simple. If you lack the ability to tell if you are raping someone or not then you have failed as a human being.

 

Easy to say whilst sober not so easy to do whilst drunk, If you are too drunk to understand what you are agreeing too then don't agree to have sex, why should the drunk man take responsibility for a drunk women when they are both impaired by their consumption of alcoholic, if both chose to get drunk then both should take full responsibility for their action. I choose not to drink for that very reason, I don't want to do something that I will later regret.

 

---------- Post added 30-04-2015 at 12:30 ----------

 

What makes you think that two people who have been drinking can't be sure that they are consenting?

You think that having a drink makes clear consent impossible?

 

---------- Post added 30-04-2015 at 10:47 ----------

 

You claim that you understand what consent is, but you thought that someone could eat cake without consent...

Is that supposed to be an excuse for rape?

 

Wherever did I suggest that? Just making things up now are we?

 

I didn't say that I did think that, what makes you think that two people who have been drinking can be sure that they are consenting?

 

No, but some people do and that is why some people end up accusing someone of rape.

 

Your inventing stuff again.

 

No its a reason why someone people accuse others of rape even though they consented.

[skinz]

Easy to say whilst sober not so easy to do whilst drunk, If you are too drunk to understand what you are agreeing too then don't agree to have sex, why should the drunk man take responsibility for a drunk women when they are both impaired by their consumption of alcoholic, if both chose to get drunk then both should take full responsibility for their action. I choose not to drink for that very reason, I don't want to do something that I will later regret.

 

Can you cite a case where both participants have been found to be equally impaired through intoxication where the male or female has been found guilty of rape?

[Olive]

Just stepping back to the original topic a bit -

 

I was listening to Radio 2 this lunchtime. One of the discussions was about intervening when someone is being attacked. One of the callers was a lady who had been seriously attacked on her way home from a night out several years ago. She's middle aged now, with daughters. She wanted to get across how important it is to keep you wits about you. The last thing she said in the interview was that she tells her daughters every time they go out to stay alert and be aware. It was so moving, hearing about her experience.

 

It made me think of this discussion.

 

I can totally see that suggesting people change their behaviour can be seen as victim blaming The truth is, sometimes it absolutely IS out and out victim blaming. Sometimes it's just misguided. Sometimes it comes from people who are used to seeing what victims go through and want to warn others. Other times it's heartfelt advice from someone who cares.

 

---------- Post added 30-04-2015 at 17:30 ----------

 

Firstly, I didn't bring 'other public health campaigns' into the discussion, I used cake though to illustrate why obesity messages are targeted at the obese and not at the food.

 

No Cyclone, that was me. I merely used public health campaigns to illustrate that adults are often the target of advice and sometimes it works, as I've already explained. Doesn't really matter what kind of advice, public health campaigns were just the first thing that sprang to mind. Maybe those signs they flash up at you on the motorway would have been a better one (although I'm not aware of any research on whether or not they work or not!). Ronthenekred was saying that giving advice to adults was a daft idea.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Olive

[Halibut]

Easy to say whilst sober not so easy to do whilst drunk, If you are too drunk to understand what you are agreeing too then don't agree to have sex, why should the drunk man take responsibility for a drunk women when they are both impaired by their consumption of alcoholic, if both chose to get drunk then both should take full responsibility for their action.

 

If two people choose to get drunk together and the man then rapes the woman, it's rape and it's the man's fault and clearly not the woman's fault.

 

It's really not that difficult a concept.

[loraward]

If two people choose to get drunk together and the man then rapes the woman, it's rape and it's the man's fault and clearly not the woman's fault.

 

It's really not that difficult a concept.

 

Whilst some might choose to rape, some don't, they mutually agree to have sex together and occasionally one of them sobers up and regrets their actions or forgets that they consented, so they accuse the other of rape.

[ronthenekred]

Ronthenekred was saying that giving advice to adults was a daft idea.

 

Obviously I wasn't clear, I apologize. Showing a pic of a comatose or smeared lipstick woman actor treats adults like children. With the amount of real harm and death available online we've become desensitized to film and media.

Just from a visual perspective I don't see the point, regardless of the message.

 

Tell me olive. If I told you alcohol put you in harms way and was bad for your health through a poster campaign, would you heed the poster drone like because it fits snugly with ingrained fears, seriously question the poster and it's credibility, or ignore the poster simply because you already think the campaign is credible?

 

Using past experience isn't a credible source, it's just an individual experience. Being drunk and attacked by a Ginger haired man isn't evidence that all Ginger haired men will attack, let alone you being attacked because you were drunk. Simply being a woman regardless of your deamenour is pretty credible though.

 

Sadly we seem to live within rape culture which advises teaches 'Don't get raped" rather than 'Don't rape', which does imply victim responsibility which amounts to a message of guilt.

[Olive]

Obviously I wasn't clear, I apologize. Showing a pic of a comatose or smeared lipstick woman actor treats adults like children. With the amount of real harm and death available online we've become desensitized to film and media.

Just from a visual perspective I don't see the point, regardless of the message.

 

Tell me olive. If I told you alcohol put you in harms way and was bad for your health through a poster campaign, would you heed the poster drone like because it fits snugly with ingrained fears, seriously question the poster and it's credibility, or ignore the poster simply because you already think the campaign is credible?

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to clarify Ron. You raise a good point. I think a poster on its own for any cause could only work as part of an ongoing and multifaceted drive to change attitudes, like the anti drink-driving crusade.

 

I guess a poster could spark a debate, could set off TV/radio discussions, peers and family members talking to each other. Whatever raises issues in the public's consciousness.

 

---------- Post added 30-04-2015 at 23:01 ----------

 

Using past experience isn't a credible source, it's just an individual experience. Being drunk and attacked by a Ginger haired man isn't evidence that all Ginger haired men will attack, let alone you being attacked because you were drunk. Simply being a woman regardless of your deamenour is pretty credible though.

 

 

Sorry you've lost me - are you referring to my post? If you mean the lady on the radio, in that particular case she heard the attacker walking behind her but didn't run off. Her advice to others was be on your toes, be aware.

 

Do you really think that in life individual experiences shouldn't be learned from? I've only become the person I am by learning every day through experience, good and bad.

 

---------- Post added 30-04-2015 at 23:10 ----------

 

Sadly we seem to live within rape culture which advises teaches 'Don't get raped" rather than 'Don't rape', which does imply victim responsibility which amounts to a message of guilt.

 

I agree, there is a wrong-headed thinking out there that essentially blames women for being women. But like absolutely everything, it's not black and white. Like I said, there's a whole mix of attitudes out there, and tarring well meaning advice to empower women with the same brush as blaming them, isn't helpful. If anything, it gives the neanderthals yet another stick to beat feminism with.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Olive

[Cyclone]

Whilst some might choose to rape, some don't, they mutually agree to have sex together and occasionally one of them sobers up and regrets their actions or forgets that they consented, so they accuse the other of rape.

 

So what? That's absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed. As usual, you're way off topic, because your comments on the topic lack any logic, morals or sense.

 

---------- Post added 01-05-2015 at 07:06 ----------

 

Lots of women do think that this kind of 'advice' is blaming the victim.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-01/albury-mayor-sorry-for-victim-blaming-rape-comments/6436510

 

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/theperch/index.php/heraldsun/comments/rapists_not_victims_responsible_for_rape/

 

A number of posters here, including a few intelligent ones, would apparently agree with the Mayor though.

Perhaps I'm lacking in the eloquence required to explain why they have an outdated and offensive opinion. There's plenty of people have said it better than me on the internet, so go out and educate yourselves, or stick your head in the sand, not my problem.