Why is telling girls to be careful rape apologistic

[Andbreathe]

On your final point - a person wearing a Celtic shirt and walking through a Rangers area... i'd bet a large wedge that the person may suffer some sort of aggressive attention.

 

This thread has nothing to do with football related violence...or are you intent on derailing the thread?

 

I don’t disagree with most of what your saying.

 

But there’s no point in arguing that a women with little clothes on will draw less attention than other women. It’s not true.

 

Im not saying that’s right it’s just a fact. Telling people they are victim blaming for accepting that is stupid.

 

So, for the record you agree or disagree that what a victim wears is totally irrelevant?

[SnailyBoy]

Just arguing then

 

I get it, you've come here just to argue that I'm just arguing?

Edited November 25, 2017 by SnailyBoy

[Cyclone]

Wouldnt happen! i wont let her dress like one..

 

What about if it's someone who has different standards to you? Perhaps girls showing their ankles or knees are scrubbers to someone.

Not only are you being rude about these girls for no reason, you're teaching your daughter that behaviour.

That hypothetical conversation about why she can't show off her stomach with a crop top doesn't require you to insult the other girls or by reflection their parents.

 

---------- Post added 25-11-2017 at 08:12 ----------

 

Do you think a sexual predator could target a woman / or be more aware of a women if she was dressed a certain way?

 

I think we all actually know that the answer is that sexual predation is nothing to do with attraction or clothing. It's primarily about vulnerability and an opportunity.

I don't think that you've convinced anyone that you can tell women what to wear without engaging in victim blaming for the behaviour of others.

 

---------- Post added 25-11-2017 at 08:14 ----------

 

I wouldn't advice women to take practical steps that will minimise their chances of being assaulted or raped (for such advice is clearly victim blaming). I can now see, my genuine heartfelt concern for the well being of other human beings was wholly misguided. Better to do whatever you like, without consideration for your personal safety, clearly that's the advice of this thread?

 

Sorry, no, that's just BS; and it makes no difference what gender you are, it is always good to be mindful of risks to your personal safety. That has nothing to do with your gender and I just can't see how it is victim blaming.

 

I'm a guy, and I wouldn't walk home at night across some areas of Sheffield. If I did, and I got mugged, I would not think I am to blame for getting mugged, but I would think I am to blame for choosing to put myself in a dangerous situation (and had I been more careful, I probably would not have been mugged). Is that victim blaming?

 

Yes, you're creating a hypothetical scenario where you blame yourself for the actions of others.

And women don't need your well meaning but misguided advice on where to go or how to dress.

 

---------- Post added 25-11-2017 at 08:17 ----------

 

Can you explain why it is?

 

It's quite simple isn't it.

The victim is the one who is assaulted. They didn't do the assaulting.

To put the onus on the victim to have avoided being assaulted (by following advice) means that when they fail to follow the advice, what follows is clearly their fault.

 

Do this thing or you might be assaulted.

*gets assaulted

You didn't do the thing, why didn't you do the thing? You could have avoided being assaulted.

 

---------- Post added 25-11-2017 at 08:18 ----------

 

No - blaming them would be to tell them its their fault after the event.

 

That would be more obvious of course, but the implicit blame is there if they didn't follow the advice they were given.

[leviathan13]

This thread has nothing to do with football related violence...or are you intent on derailing the thread?

 

 

 

So, for the record you agree or disagree that what a victim wears is totally irrelevant?

 

The thread is about advising girls to not wear certain clothing or you're classed as victim blaming.

 

A comment was made about what a person wears not being a factor in the risk of assault. I gave a scenario where it would be a factor.

 

Another one would be Sophie Lancaster who was attacked for being a 'goth' and died. If she had been dressed 'normally', would she have been attacked?

Edited November 25, 2017 by leviathan13

[Guest makapaka]

This thread has nothing to do with football related violence...or are you intent on derailing the thread?

 

 

 

So, for the record you agree or disagree that what a victim wears is totally irrelevant?

 

No - I’m saying that if a woman walks through a bar full of drunken men with little clothes on - she is more likely to get unwanted attention.

 

No one can deny that - it’s not right - but it’s true.

[Olive]

The thread is about advising girls to not wear certain clothing or you're classed as victim blaming.

 

A comment was made about what a person wears not being a factor in the risk of assault. I gave a scenario where it would be a factor.

 

Another one would be Sophie Lancaster who was attacked for being a 'goth' and died. If she had been dressed 'normally', would she have been attacked?

 

You're right, it is part of the discussion on victim blaming in general. I was going to mention the same thing myself, but I ran out of steam last night.

 

They way someone looks has a definite impact on other people's perceptions and reactions. Dressing to stand out, as part of a "tribe", dressing provocatively, having a tattoo on your face, whatever, it's all about sending out a signal of how you see yourself and how you want others to see you. Everyone does it to some extent.

 

It's entirely reasonable to expect attention if you go to the extreme, or else why do it? Why did punks wear safety pins and Mohecan hairdos? I don't think you can complain if somebody looks at you, or maybe even comments.

 

Physical attack is not something you could reasonably expect whatever you look like, so it would be pointless advising people to dress in a certain way. I guess the exception comes when you could reasonably expect something nasty to happen if you dress a certain way, eg your football scenario, or if you were heading out into a rough part of Rio, dressed in Gucci and flashing a Rolex.

 

Like somebody else said, it's all about actual risk and reasonable mitigating actions.

 

Which is why when it comes to sexual assault, it's a red herring to talk about dress. As Cyclone said, this is a crime of opportunity and vulnerability, which clothing has nothing to do with.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Olive

[Guest makapaka]

You're right, it is part of the discussion on victim blaming in general. I was going to mention the same thing myself, but I ran out of steam last night.

 

They way someone looks has a definite impact on other people's perceptions and reactions. Dressing to stand out, as part of a "tribe", dressing provocatively, having a tattoo on your face, whatever, it's all about sending out a signal of how you see yourself and how you want others to see you. Everyone does it to some extent.

 

It's entirely reasonable to expect attention if you go to the extreme, or else why do it? Why did punks wear safety pins and Mohegan hairdos? I don't think you can complain if somebody looks at you, or maybe even comments.

 

Physical attack is not something you could reasonably expect whatever you look like, so it would be pointless advising people to dress in a certain way. I guess the exception comes when you could reasonably expect something nasty to happen if you dress a certain way, eg your football scenario, or if you were heading out into a rough part of Rio, dressed in Gucci and flashing a Rolex.

 

Like somebody else said, it's all about actual risk and reasonable mitigating actions.

 

Which is why when it comes to sexual assault, it's a red herring to talk about dress. As Cyclone said, this is a crime of opportunity and vulnerability, which clothing has nothing to do with.

 

Assault yes - I wouldn’t say the same for unwanted attention.

[Olive]

Assault yes - I wouldn’t say the same for unwanted attention.

 

Then we agree. That's what I'm saying.

[Waldo]

Yes, you're creating a hypothetical scenario where you blame yourself for the actions of others.

 

No I am not. I clearly state I would not be to blame for getting attacked, but where I am to blame, is in my decision to knowingly put myself in to a dangerous situation.

 

I'm sorry if you're unable to distinguish between the two!

 

And women don't need your well meaning but misguided advice on where to go or how to dress.

 

Where I am advising women how to dress? Or where to go even?

 

Have I advised people not to put themselves in to dangerous situations? If so, people certainly don't need you telling them that advice is misguided. I think people are generally capable of thinking for themselves, don't you?

 

---------- Post added 25-11-2017 at 19:12 ----------

 

Which is why when it comes to sexual assault, it's a red herring to talk about dress. As Cyclone said, this is a crime of opportunity and vulnerability, which clothing has nothing to do with.

 

I think you're probably spot on there Olive.

 

The only thing for me that springs to mind, regarding clothing (and again this is from a purely pragmatic perspective), is that you want to be wearing something that will better allow you to flight or flee; should you come under attack.

[Olive]

The only thing for me that springs to mind, regarding clothing (and again this is from a purely pragmatic perspective), is that you want to be wearing something that will better allow you to flight or flee; should you come under attack.

 

Yeah, I get what you mean. I don't know how often it's a factor, but yes, in theory.