"I've paid into the system!"

[Chris_Sleeps]

But, to maintain the analogy with Berberis' post, is any public officer frog-marching taxpayers into making pension contributions to secure that tax-relief?

No. Financial Advisers do that part.

 

If people in receipt of benefits are not claiming everything to which they are entitled 'on paper' but get by reasonably fine, then them wanting to better their lot from that point forward may well incentivise them into getting a better job, taking up additional training, seizing an enterprising initiative

If the government has put that money as allocated for welfare, and people are entitled to make a claim, then I see no problem in informing them of that. A person being happy and ignorant of what they can get isn't a reason for them to be misinformed.

 

If you think it is unfair then change the rules for entitlement, which is what welfare reform has been doing. I'll support that.

 

I'll give you a personal example, outside of my professional experience. I was talking to a friend of my wife recently and her grandmother is 90 years old. She is ill and said friend-of-my-wife is having a hard time keeping everything propped up. I know there are benefits in place that could give her Gran a little extra money to pay for a cleaner, or a gardener, or help family with petrol costs for driving around the city with shopping.

I don't feel any shame in informing someone of what is available.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Chris_Sleeps

[ubermaus]

But, to maintain the analogy with Berberis' post, is any public officer frog-marching taxpayers into making pension contributions to secure that tax-relief?

Personally, I consider the issue entirely amorally, in simple terms of resources.

 

If people in receipt of benefits are not claiming everything to which they are entitled 'on paper' but get by reasonably fine, then them wanting to better their lot from that point forward may well incentivise them into getting a better job, taking up additional training, seizing an enterprising initiative, <etc.> basically 'help themselves more', whilst unspent/unclaimed benefits are redirected to alternatives (or carried forward in budgets, and resulting in less actual cuts - for what is effectively unspent is not missed when cut).

 

Wishful (admittedly less than well-informed) thinking as it may be, I'd like to think that's how it works mostly in practice.

 

FWIW I only ever had occasion to call on the benefits system once in 20-odd years. Over a period of 6 months, we had zero income coming into our household. And I mean zero. Nada, nothing. Both sacked within a week of one another and black-balled/unemployable, with my Mrs newly pregnant, and an employment tribunal case to fund and go through.

 

Can you guess what benefits we got in that time (during which I set up an online business with a few hundred quids and travelled far and wide for interviews, including overseas trips)?

 

Sod all. Zero. Nada. Nothing. Not even JSA. We did get good free healthcare for my Mrs, thanks to the NHS.

 

I was quite hacked off at not getting anything whatsoever, but it wasn't because we'd been paying in at the top whack for years heretofore. Why did we get sod all? Perhaps unsurprisingly, because we'd been reasonable and careful with our money, and had a bit of savings. That's what p***ed me off.

 

I wouldnt get jsa either due to savings. But thats how the system works. The poor, disabled and vulnerable get access to assistance as a priority and rightly so imo.

 

---------- Post added 11-05-2015 at 13:32 ----------

 

Who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to decide the needs of others?

 

Youre actually spot on here. Its not for individuals to decide, thats why we have a democratically elected administration.

[Chris_Sleeps]

There are contribution-based benefits that give you a certain amount of JSA and disregards your means - your savings. It is limited to some months though, not long-term.

 

Britain has been in need of welfare reform for a long time, but I don't think Universal Credit is going to help. It's the same problems under a new banner, but with now even more conditions (ie. hoops to jump through).

[L00b]

No. Financial Advisers do that part.

You mean, those guys (and gals) who earn a living from the commissions paid by the taxpayers they advise, then?

If the government has put that money as allocated for welfare, and people are entitled to make a claim, then I see no problem in informing them of that. A person being happy and ignorant of what they can get isn't a reason for them to be misinformed.

I don't believe anyone has recommended or endorsed misinformation, Chris. If someone asks, of course they should be told.

[ubermaus]

There are contribution-based benefits that give you a certain amount of JSA and disregards your means - your savings. It is limited to some months though, not long-term.

 

Britain has been in need of welfare reform for a long time, but I don't think Universal Credit is going to help. It's the same problems under a new banner, but with now even more conditions (ie. hoops to jump through).

 

I wouldnt disagree with a rejig of welfare. All the best countries have a decent welfare system tho, doing away with it would be crazy.

 

---------- Post added 11-05-2015 at 13:47 ----------

 

Many people are vulnerable. They might be fighting some disease physically or mentally, not trying or able to work out our already over complex welfare system.

[Chris_Sleeps]

I don't believe anyone has recommended or endorsed misinformation, Chris. If someone asks, of course they should be told.

Berberis seems to be putting forward the idea that if someone asks, only those who need the money should be told.

 

Not misinformation per se, just a barrier.

[salou4]

The idea that the state should be there as a safety net has long gone, with too many people seeing it as a provider of entitlement.

With a growing and aging population that is simply not sustainable so at some point someone is going to have to make difficult decisions about who gets what. And who goes without.

[Cyclone]

How many people are long term claimants with little/no intention of ever working?

[Eater Sundae]

The idea that the state should be there as a safety net has long gone, with too many people seeing it as a provider of entitlement.

With a growing and aging population that is simply not sustainable so at some point someone is going to have to make difficult decisions about who gets what. And who goes without.

 

I disagree that "the idea... ...has long gone". There are many people that believe it should be a safety net and nothing else.

 

The more savvy benefit claimants will be on top of their "entitlement", and get everything that they can. The less able are likely to be the ones who miss out on their entitlements - and these are the ones that need the most help.

 

I'm all for welfare reform, especially if it able to identify those in real need and help them, while incentivising those who do not really need help but are living off other people's hard work to take more responsibility for themselves. Easier said than done, though.

[L00b]

Berberis seems to be putting forward the idea that if someone asks, only those who need the money should be told.

Ah, well, I wasn't inferring anything from Berberis' posts. Or yours.

 

But an inescapable fact remains, and notwithstanding the full entitlement of any one person at any one time, that those in charge of public purse's strings, at any level, should not consider these funds as a bottomless resource.

 

Otherwise you eventually end up in the current situation befalling e.g. the NHS, riddled head-to-toe with financial over-commitments unconcerned with the provision of primary healthcare, at the very expense of its (continuing) capacity to provide that primary healthcare. It's exactly what happened in France years ago already, and in respect of which the Gvt eventually made all bank accounts holders pay extra monthly tax-by-direct-debit (CSG and now CRDS) to this day.

 

Makes a case in point for cutting what's not being spent. That's apolitical: it's just sound financial management.

Edited May 11, 2015 by L00b