Chelle-82 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 In bold 'welcome to the club'. Cyclone is the only forumer I know who can take a n insiginificant quote out of context and create a whole thread about it! He did it to me on the Wolf Whistling thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermaus Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 My own belief is that a system based on entitlements, that we still have now, is much better than one based on charity. Mainly because being in receipt of charity can feel humiliating and probably won't reach the people it needs to. That's why organised systems of support, like the welfare state, were set up in the first place. I also think that entitlement, as a mind set, rather than as a citizen's right, isn't the sole preserve of benefit recipients. Agreed. One day **** of the walk, the next a feather duster...unemployment can easily happen to almost anyone, disability too...so we should be grateful for a strong and fair welfare state. ---------- Post added 11-05-2015 at 17:32 ---------- scunthorpe, just checking... ---------- Post added 11-05-2015 at 17:33 ---------- s **** thorpe ....thats better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salou4 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Agreed. One day **** of the walk, the next a feather duster...unemployment can easily happen to almost anyone, disability too...so we should be grateful for a strong and fair welfare state. ---------- Post added 11-05-2015 at 17:32 ---------- scunthorpe, just checking... ---------- Post added 11-05-2015 at 17:33 ---------- s **** thorpe ....thats better Is anyone arguing for a welfare state that isn't strong and fair? The issue is what defines "fair" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Oh you're here look! Wondered how long until you popped up asking ridiculous questions. The answer is NO. I like what you did though.. You took the first part of my post and 'quoted' it, but left out the second part of my post which is where i explain i'd rather be in my position, paying my taxes and it going to whoever needs it! i never mentioned anything about the government writing to me with an expenditure form asking me to inform them where i think my taxes should be spent. It's what you said... Didn't you mean it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzijlstra Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Is anyone arguing for a welfare state that isn't strong and fair? The issue is what defines "fair" Thank you That is indeed the issue, I am (as usual) guilty of straying away from it, but your statement there clarifies it nicely. Someone mentioned JSA and "unemployment insurance" (which is exactly what it was called in the Netherlands at some point) - Why can we not have a system whereby there is a link between the total of NI contribution per tax-year decides on the unemployment benefits one gets, for example? If you are going to be entitled to something, be entitled to the correct amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 He did it to me on the Wolf Whistling thread! Wow, fancy that, quoting what someone said... It was an entire paragraph, it's not like I quoted a word here and there to make it appear that you said something you didn't. ---------- Post added 11-05-2015 at 17:55 ---------- As someone who has had to pay for their further education, earned a wage since being 16yrs old, paying the higher tax rate, owns my own home and has NEVER claimed a single benefit I do get rather frustrated that my taxes are being used however the government deems fit. What DOES this first paragraph mean. Since you're so upset at me quoting it and asking... All that said, I would rather pay my taxes and contribute to the 'pot' along with millions of other tax payers in my position and thank my lucky stars that I don't have to claim benefits. I may sometimes complain but I also consider myself fortunate, and if my only concern in life is about the amount of tax I have to pay then I would take that over being in a position where I can't work and contribute and have to struggle to get by with the benefits I'd be handed out. And here's the 2nd paragraph that in no way alters what the 1st one says... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermaus Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Thank you That is indeed the issue, I am (as usual) guilty of straying away from it, but your statement there clarifies it nicely. Someone mentioned JSA and "unemployment insurance" (which is exactly what it was called in the Netherlands at some point) - Why can we not have a system whereby there is a link between the total of NI contribution per tax-year decides on the unemployment benefits one gets, for example? If you are going to be entitled to something, be entitled to the correct amount. So create an under-under class. A kind of haves and have-nots within the unemployed class...brilliant idea. ---------- Post added 11-05-2015 at 17:57 ---------- Is anyone arguing for a welfare state that isn't strong and fair? The issue is what defines "fair" Fair is almost what we have. It just needs tweaking. ---------- Post added 11-05-2015 at 17:58 ---------- If anything INCREASE benefits such as JSA. In countries where there is high income support it is found to actually incentivise people into work. ---------- Post added 11-05-2015 at 18:03 ---------- Clearly 50-70 quid a week is not enough...and theres not enough jobs in the economy for full employment anway...were about 3 million short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelle-82 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Wow, fancy that, quoting what someone said... It was an entire paragraph, it's not like I quoted a word here and there to make it appear that you said something you didn't. ---------- Post added 11-05-2015 at 17:55 ---------- What DOES this first paragraph mean. Since you're so upset at me quoting it and asking... And here's the 2nd paragraph that in no way alters what the 1st one says... Please don't be under any illusion that i am upset. I'm also not going to get into a 'you said, he said, but what does it mean' debate with you. I've seen you do it to so many other forum members on other threads and i quite frankly don't have the stamina, the patience or the interest to go into battle with you Cyclone. You are a pro at it and i simply can't live up to your expectations of a worthy opponent. As said to you on the other thread, see my post. You may dissect it, read between the lines and fill in the blanks but there it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermaus Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 The government is infact punishing people for not getting jobs that don't exist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelle-82 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 It's what you said... Didn't you mean it? Where did i say i should be asked what my taxes should be spent on? Show me Cyclone and i shall beg for your forgiveness! though i am not worthy oh great one.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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