Should Labour move right or left?

[Eric Arthur]

Pity Thatcher couldn't have done the same .

 

That's a real moral high ground you've got there.

 

---------- Post added 13-08-2015 at 06:54 ----------

 

I don't think talent or ability is the reason he has been overlooked, rather the fact that he's independent minded & can't be easily whipped into submission.

People prefer team players to dictators.

[blake]

[/b]

That might have been true up until the crash of 2008, but since then we have been going backwards.

 

 

that was where not just Corbyn but also Miliband, went wrong. They thought oh look, there's just been a massive financial crash, there must be a lurch to the left on the cards which we can pitch to.

 

but they got it wrong. The voters didn't lurch to the left at all, they moved if anything, to the right. Look at the results of the elections since the 2008 crash.

 

people just aren't as left wing anymore compared to what they used to be. Even Miliband was far too left wing for the ordinary Joe voter, how can anybody think that Corbyn will be any better than him?

 

it's the Ken Livingstone syndrome. They haven't learned anything. When Labour lost in 1992, Livingstone went on television and said we lost because we weren't left wing enough. When they lost in 2015, he went on television and said exactly the same thing.

 

how about, when Labour were winning elections, on a non left wing ticket, by large margins, between 1997 and 2005? Did Livingstone go on television and say if only Labour had been more left wing, then they would have won by even more?

[Anna B]

And yet the poll on this thread shows people want to see a move to the left.

 

I understand that people are afraid of 'Old Labour' and it's Marxist principles, but it doesn't have to be like that, there is a middle ground, responsible socialism and responsible capitalism. There is room for both.

 

Incidently Jaguar has just moved its Land Rover production to Slovakia, after 67 years in Britain, with the attendant loss of jobs. That's in spite of the Tories moves to make Britain 'open for business,' generous concessions on Corporation tax etc.

 

I don't particularly blame the Tories, but if it had happened on Labour's watch they would have been baying it from the treetops.

[*_ash_*]

And yet the poll on this thread shows people want to see a move to the left.

 

You talk about people using polls/figures to see whatever they want (when it's something you don't agree with) - couldn't make it up

 

I wonder how many people right of centre would click on wanting to Labour move to the left because it will make them unelectable.

 

I understand that people are afraid of 'Old Labour' and it's Marxist principles, but it doesn't have to be like that, there is a middle ground, responsible socialism and responsible capitalism. There is room for both.

 

This sounds more like LibDem.

 

Incidently Jaguar has just moved its Land Rover production to Slovakia, after 67 years in Britain, with the attendant loss of jobs. That's in spite of the Tories moves to make Britain 'open for business,' generous concessions on Corporation tax etc.

 

I wonder if all the people who say 'shut the door on your way out' will openly say that now - when they see it actually happening? I doubt we'll see them post.

[apelike]

That might have been true up until the crash of 2008, but since then we have been going backwards.

 

No it has not, and was the reason why I quoted Macmillan as what he said then also stands today.

 

Those entering the workforce post 2008 are experiencing a very different world. Workers rights have been trampled on. 0 hours, temporory contracts, agency work, the umbrella system, macjobs, influx of migrant labour, periods of unemployment, etc. And without some stability in the labour market, everything else goes downhill too.

 

But the labour market is stable and has not changed much since 2008.

 

The Welfare state is being dismantled when it has never been more needed, and we are now seeing serious social problems coming to the fore; need for foodbanks, affordable housing, mental health problems, care for the elderly, the working poor etc. Meanwhile there is more money sloshing around the system than ever before but the mega corporations and mega rich are syphoning up the money. The gap between rich and poor is growing greater and nowhere more so than the UK. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk-most-unequal-country-in-the-west-1329614.html)

 

What part of the walfare state has been dismantled? Why does it matter that the gap between rich and poor is growing? Is it right that being poor is now classed someone who earns 60% or less than the national average wage?

 

The world is changing rapidly. Everything needs to be looked at afresh. Meanwhile the politicians we have at the moment might as well belong to the same party; their complacency is pitiful, they hardly acknowledge the problems, much less enter into a meaningful debate.

 

The trouble is the way it is now is working so there will be little to chose and few changes. The next big step that I can see coming is that if we stay in the EU, and I'm sure we will, then they will take over and we will end up being governed by them.

 

The ordinary working man needs a champion again, to ask the right questions, find new ways of doing things, stir things up and get things moving again.

The incisive Jeremy Corbyn might be just the man to do it.

 

There is no such thing as the ordinary man anymore. Times and peoples attitudes and wealth have changed. People now want modern tec devices, a large percentage now own their own home and class themselves as middle class not working class.

 

Those people are hardly going to embrace Labour again especially if it becomes more Left wing with Corbyn.

[DrNorm]

[/b]The ordinary working man needs a champion again, to ask the right questions, find new ways of doing things, stir things up and get things moving again.

 

The incisive Jeremy Corbyn might be just the man to do it.

 

He may have some good ideas. He may stand by his principles and may be well respected by many for that. However I fear his distance from the centre ground will make him too many enemies who will then misrepresent what he actually says.

 

I don't think he's battle hardened and can't imagine he will do well at Prime Minister's Question Time.

 

And there's something about him that reminds me of

[I1L2T3]

that was where not just Corbyn but also Miliband, went wrong. They thought oh look, there's just been a massive financial crash, there must be a lurch to the left on the cards which we can pitch to.

 

but they got it wrong. The voters didn't lurch to the left at all, they moved if anything, to the right. Look at the results of the elections since the 2008 crash.

 

people just aren't as left wing anymore compared to what they used to be. Even Miliband was far too left wing for the ordinary Joe voter, how can anybody think that Corbyn will be any better than him?

 

it's the Ken Livingstone syndrome. They haven't learned anything. When Labour lost in 1992, Livingstone went on television and said we lost because we weren't left wing enough. When they lost in 2015, he went on television and said exactly the same thing.

 

how about, when Labour were winning elections, on a non left wing ticket, by large margins, between 1997 and 2005? Did Livingstone go on television and say if only Labour had been more left wing, then they would have won by even more?

 

Or more like they actually understand the causes of the crash and tried or are trying to offer an alternative.

 

Opposing neoliberalism might mean moving more the left but let's be honest about how far to the right things have shifted. We're not talking about communism as a solution but blending more centre-left policies into the mix to counter the worst excesses of a state that has been captured by the corporates.

Edited August 13, 2015 by I1L2T3

[DrNorm]

Where not talking about communism as a solution but blending more centre-left policies into the mix to counter the worst excesses of a state that has been captured by the corporates.

 

Is this an accurate representation of Corbyn's stance or your spin on it? Serious question ... I tend to agree with what you say, but that's not the message I'm picking up on Corbyn's politics (I recognise that message has been filtered by the media)

[May Blob]

[/b]

That might have been true up until the crash of 2008, but since then we have been going backwards.

 

Those entering the workforce post 2008 are experiencing a very different world. Workers rights have been trampled on. 0 hours, temporory contracts, agency work, the umbrella system, macjobs, influx of migrant labour, periods of unemployment, etc. And without some stability in the labour market, everything else goes downhill too.

 

The Welfare state is being dismantled when it has never been more needed, and we are now seeing serious social problems coming to the fore; need for foodbanks, affordable housing, mental health problems, care for the elderly, the working poor etc. Meanwhile there is more money sloshing around the system than ever before but the mega corporations and mega rich are syphoning up the money. The gap between rich and poor is growing greater and nowhere more so than the UK. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk-most-unequal-country-in-the-west-1329614.html)

 

The world is changing rapidly. Everything needs to be looked at afresh. Meanwhile the politicians we have at the moment might as well belong to the same party; their complacency is pitiful, they hardly acknowledge the problems, much less enter into a meaningful debate.

 

The ordinary working man needs a champion again, to ask the right questions, find new ways of doing things, stir things up and get things moving again.

The incisive Jeremy Corbyn might be just the man to do it.

 

Couldn't agree more the labour party lost its way under new labour.

[Jim Hardie]

Couldn't agree more the labour party lost its way under new labour.

 

So winning three consecutive elections is losing its way.