EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[unbeliever]

I think you have to get out of that mindset because as Loob has pointed out the numbers game simply isn't stacking up in the UK's favour.

 

 

 

You're both suggesting, without evidence, that the rest of the EU would be so upset by our decision to leave that they would expend gold and possibly blood trying to hurt us. If they really are like that then we need to get as far away from them as possible as soon as possible.

 

Fortunately, they're not like that and this is all far fetched scare mongering.

[loraward]

Not necessarily. In my earlier post (a bit you conveniently ignored) I described the existence of cohorts of permanently unemployable people. When you add those to the transiently unemployed you probably account for the vast majority of registered unemployed people.

 

---------- Post added 11-06-2015 at 11:26 ----------

 

 

You want to pay more money for a worse diet? Are you sure?

 

You are assuming that they will be allowed to stay unemployed.

 

What makes you think we will have a worse diet if we leave the EU, we managed just fine before it and had fewer fat people.

[unbeliever]

There's no appetite for that in the UK as we know. There's no need for us to be part of that and he reality is that the EU is going to have to mean different things to different countries. There have been enough warnings that a one size fits all approach simply won't work.

 

The whole point of the EU is integration. They always end up pushing the one size in the end. They sometimes offer multi-speed, which I have a big problem with as I am concerned with the destination and not the pace.

 

"Ever Closer Union"

They couldn't be any clearer of their intentions.

It's only the UK press and public who seem confused about the destiny of the EU.

[loraward]

As someone involved in employment and debt counselling on a voluntary basis I feel confident in stating that any Brit who wants a job can get one.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that the attraction to this country by the displaced and workshy of other nations is our over generous welfare system.

 

Making work worth it whilst driving down welfare benefits will make this country less attractive to foreign interlopers and will increase the standard of self esteem, physical fitness and positive outlook of those currently trapped in welfare dependency.

 

We should stay in Europe, we should also insist on change. They need us more than we need them. Cameron is the man to sort this out.

 

We just need to encourage more to want a job and then improve the hours and pay of some of those jobs.

 

Without the voice of people saying we should leave, Cameron wouldn't have an intensive to change things.

[L00b]

You're talking about a trade war. It's not theoretically impossible. That's not in anybody's interests and all sounds rather implausible.

I'm not talking about a trade war, I'm talking about the same sort of semi-protectionist measures enacted between the EU and EFTA member states like Norway and Switzerland (examples of which have already been provided), and between the EU and the rest of the world. What on earth makes you think the UK will be immune? Because "cos we're the UK innit"?

You're also warning of a threat to property rights? That's extraordinarily unlikely as these countries respect the property rights of every other country outside the EU.

No, because I certainly never referred to outright expropriation (which is what you seem to suggest).

 

But tell me something: if an EU State, in which an ex-EU Brit lives, turns round and tells the Brit "you can't get this visa now, apply again, and in the meantime GTF out"...then what? (that's how the UK currently treats failed non-EU long-term visa applicants already in the UK on a tourist visa, whether they own property in the UK or not, whether their (UK or not-) spouse is legitimately residing in the UK or not - just so you know, in case you didn't).

 

Another quick question: do you own any property in the EU, other than in the UK?

Do we want to be part of the emerging European super-state?

There was never any risk of the UK ever being a part of it, as soon as the UK turned its back on the Euro. Simple as.

 

Merkel, Hollande, Brussels, Strasbourg...they've all long known it, and stalled about formalising a two-speed EU the best they could, because that development is not in their respective national and political interests.

 

Until now ('now' is relatively speaking...I'd say since 2011, but these things take a long time: Cameron set these things in motion 4 years ago, I'd say we're in the finishing stages by now), when we have finally reached the "s**t or get off the pot" stage as soon as Cameron got a majority Gvt.

Edited June 11, 2015 by L00b

[unbeliever]

I'm not talking about a trade war, I'm talking about the same sort of semi-protectionist measures enacted between the EU and EFTA member states like Norway and Switzerland (examples of which have already been provided), and between the EU and the rest of the world. What on earth makes you think the UK will be immune? Because "cos we're the UK innit"?

No, because I certainly never referred to outright expropriation (which is what you seem to suggest).

 

But tell me something: if an EU State, in which an ex-EU Brit lives, turns round and tells the Brit "you can't get this visa now, apply again, and in the meantime GTF out"...then what?

 

Another quick question: do you own any property in the EU, other than in the UK?

There was never any risk of the UK ever being a part of it, as soon as the UK turned its back on the Euro. Simple as.

 

Merkel, Hollande, Brussels, Strasbourg...they've all long known it, and stalled about formalising a two-speed EU the best they could, because that development is not in their respective national and political interests.

 

Until now ('now' is relatively speaking...I'd say since 2011, but these things take a long time), when we have finally reached the "s**t or get off the pot" stage as soon as Cameron got a majority Gvt. Cameron set these things in motion 4 years ago, I'd say we're in the finishing stages by now.

 

 

The problem with all this is that the UK has a trade deficit with the EU.

Anything they do to inhibit trade with the UK hurts them more than it hurts us.

 

If they do deliberately inhibit trade, then they're idiots and we're better off without them anyway.

 

A two-speed Europe is not good enough. The destination is what matters.

 

Massive powers over crucial matters such Immigration, Taxation, Energy, and Criminal Justice to name a few; have already been transferred. We are already half way into the super-state. If we stay in the EU it will continue quietly and gradually turning into a single state and we'll get sucked in. Maybe not in the first wave, but it'll happen.

Edited June 11, 2015 by unbeliever
more thoughts

[L00b]

The problem with all this is that the UK has a trade deficit with the EU.

That's not a problem at all for EU manufacturers and service providers, on the contrary it's a hell of a once-in-decades market opportunity.

 

See, that's the problem with seeing the world in such polarised terms: belly-buttonism skews your perspective and makes you to miss the bigger picture

[unbeliever]

That's not a problem at all for EU manufacturers and service providers, on the contrary it's a hell of a once-in-decades market opportunity.

 

See, that's the problem with seeing the world in such polarised terms: belly-buttonism skews your perspective and makes you to miss the bigger picture

 

What?

Did you just switch sides?

How does pricing themselves out of the UK market help EU manufacturers?

[I1L2T3]

You are assuming that they will be allowed to stay unemployed.

 

What makes you think we will have a worse diet if we leave the EU, we managed just fine before it and had fewer fat people.

 

For certain people there is no choice but to leave them unemployed.

 

It's not about what you eat it's about how much you pay for it. We can't sustain ourselves from the UK so we have to import. If we leave the EU then we have no guarantee cheap imports can continue.

[unbeliever]

For certain people there is no choice but to leave them unemployed.

 

It's not about what you eat it's about how much you pay for it. We can't sustain ourselves from the UK so we have to import. If we leave the EU then we have no guarantee cheap imports can continue.

 

 

Without the EU tariffs, food from outside the EU will be cheaper.

 

Any protectionist action by the EU will be matched by the UK. It'll cost them more than us as we operate a trade deficit with them. If they're that stupid then we're better off away from them.