retep Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 So you believe that the €3 billion subsidies given to farmers should disappear overnight? Won't this lead to more expensive food? What about the €1 billion given to research, surely cutting this will have a detrimental effect upon the country? You give me twenty pounds and I'll give you six back, when can I expect my first twenty? Seems a fair deal to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 It won't isolate us from those problems but it will help to minimise the financial and social cost. The mass migration of people from the dysfunctional Muslim world has nothing to do with globalisation and we do not have a responsibility to solve their problems. I think it does, it a simple case of haves and have nots. They want the security and prosperity that we have and they don't. The refugees have lost faith that they'll ever get it where they live, so solving this problem is the key to solving the refugee problem. This problem is the West's problem, not just the EU's, so in or out of the EU we'll have to work towards find a solution with the rest of the other countries. ---------- Post added 22-02-2016 at 10:35 ---------- You give me twenty pounds and I'll give you six back, when can I expect my first twenty? Seems a fair deal to me. No, it seems the stance of the out-brigade on here is that we'll stop paying £20 to be a member of a club, and we'll spend in on whatever pet project each different person has. The problem is that the £20 is being spent many times over! If there was a costed plan from the out campaign, there wouldn't be any ambiguity about this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Arthur Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) At last, we are getting somewhere and you are at least willing to drill into this a bit without just accusing g me of scaremongering. OK, let's start with the impact on: 1. Regulation. For each of the possible models post-Brexit outline the impact on regulation in the UK. To what extent will the UK have to adopt EU regulation. To what extent will the UK be free to diverge from EU regulation. What will be the impact on exporters. 2. Rules of origin. What are the implications? 3. Leeway to make own trade deals. Answer carefully on this because certain models offer virtually none, e.g. the Norway model. ---------- Post added 22-02-2016 at 10:27 ---------- Cool. Show me the plan Again, you have this the wrong way around. You need to say what the actual problem is, not me. In absence of that the simple answer is to replicate existing arrangements with non EU nations,with local twists as appropriate, but if you think that is a problem you need to say why. An equally simple instant solution is to leave existing EU arrangements in place and adjust them over time. You need to remember that I'm predisposed to staying in, but to be honest, the more we dig, the more I'm doubting myself. Edited February 22, 2016 by Eric Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 It won't isolate us from those problems but it will help to minimise the financial and social cost. The mass migration of people from the dysfunctional Muslim world has nothing to do with globalisation and we do not have a responsibility to solve their problems. I read one of the leave campaign websites last night and part of the plan seems to be to partly replace EU trade with commonwealth trade. 500 million Muslims in the commonwealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 80% of Norway's exports are to the EU and 65% of its imports come from the EU. Compare that with the UK, where only 50% of our trade is with the Europe and some of that is with Switzerland which is outside the EU anyway. Now for the love of god, will the Europhiles stop pretending that just because Norway finds it convenient to copy the EU's trading standards etc, we'd have to do the same. It's a damn lie. I'm not saying that those who post it on here know it's a lie. They may not. People sometimes unknowingly repeat a lie believing it to be the truth. But it is a lie. And a big fat one at that. It's just stupid. Over a quarter of our trade is with the Americas. Do we automatically copy their rules. Do we heck! Businesses wanting to trade with the EU will have to meet their standards. Businesses wanting to trade with the US will have to meet their standards, just as they do now. What we'll escape is that all businesses throughout the UK will no longer automatically have to meet EU standards whether they trade with the EU or not. Do you get it now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Again, I you have this the wrong way around. You need to say what the actual problem is, not me. In absence of that the simple answer is to replicate existing arrangements with non EU nations,with local twists as appropriate, but if you think that is a problem you need to say why. An equally simple instant solution is to leave existing EU arrangements in place and adjust them over time. You need to remember that I'm predisposed to staying in, but to be honest, the more we dig, the more I'm doubting myself. Where did I ever say it was a problem. I'm just asking questions. The point I'm making is that if the leave campaign wants change they need to give some clue about what the changes will be. They just seem to be saying it'll all be OK, which it might actually be, but they need to get some coherent answers together. Just accusing doubters of scaremongering is a tactic that isn't going to work for very long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MobileB Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Ooh! Scary pant stuff. What about Europes reliance on the UK for their exports? UK exports 44% of its GDP to Europe and imports 55% (2014 figures). Overall, we currently account for around 3% of all EU exports. If we were to leave, we would account for around 11% of all non-EU trade of goods but would be less than this if services were included. Put simply, when it comes to the EU side of the trade, we are not very big, but the other way round EU is very big to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Where did I ever say it was a problem. I'm just asking questions. The point I'm making is that if the leave campaign wants change they need to give some clue about what the changes will be. They just seem to be saying it'll all be OK, which it might actually be, but they need to get some coherent answers together. Just accusing doubters of scaremongering is a tactic that isn't going to work for very long. You know what. I don't know exactly what will happen. You're arguing against democracy again. Only a technocracy avoids such risks. The people of the UK through their elected representatives will decide. I'm sure they'll make some bad decisions. That's nothing new. We deserve the right to decide. If we make good choices, we'll do well. If not we'll do less well. The EU is less than half our trade. Norway do three quarters of their trade with the EU and they do fine outside, although they find it useful be be members of EFTA. Not sure it's useful to us. If you don't want to be accused of scare-mongering then stop it. The phrase "putting 50% of our trade at risk" is blatant scare mongering as it's designed to mislead people into thinking that we'll lose 50% of our trade when that is in fact completely impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Arthur Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Where did I ever say it was a problem. I'm just asking questions. The point I'm making is that if the leave campaign wants change they need to give some clue about what the changes will be. They just seem to be saying it'll all be OK, which it might actually be, but they need to get some coherent answers together. Fair enough, though I think that unbeliever has summed up how I feel about it in general. I do have total confidence that the UK will be at least as well off outside as inside though. I also have total confidence that the EU will trade with the UK just as much as it does already because the UK is the EU's largest buyer of EU goods and services. More than anything, I have more confidence in the vested interests of business people than the vested interests of bureaucrats to make the UK a success either in or out of the EU. If being out means more money in your pocket and mine I'll have to go with it. Right now, the more I learn the more I lean in that direction and that surprises me to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamo Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Interestingly I haven't seen any clear plans on what the UK plans to do with the money saved, and what they'll do about the money lost from the out campaign. This is the order of things. Strategy comes first. Then tactics. Then implementation plans. We are currently deciding strategy i.e. are our interests best served in or out of the EU. You don't get detailed plans at this stage, you get outline business cases and that is plenty of material for you to study. ---------- Post added 22-02-2016 at 11:06 ---------- I read one of the leave campaign websites last night and part of the plan seems to be to partly replace EU trade with commonwealth trade. 500 million Muslims in the commonwealth. What's that got to do with anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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